Topic awaiting preservation: Matrix: Reloaded for those who've seen it... (I.E. Spoilers) (Page 1 of 2)

I wanted to start a thread to discuss interpretations of the plot developments in the new movie. I really loved that conversation with the Architect and I must admit, I wasn't expecting that direction at all.

So let's cuss and discuss:

1. What did you think of what the Architect had to say?
2. What role is Agent Smith going to play in the whole thing?
3. What happened to Neo there at the end?

Feel free to take this in any direction you want it to go...

P.S. I'd like this to focus on the plot, not on if you thought the movie was good or how you liked the graphics/feel of it. Feel free to start another topic for those matters.

:::krets.net:::


[This message has been edited by krets (edited 05-16-2003).]

Here's a thought:

What if it's all a program? The entire thing, the machines, the matrix, all the humans, Zion, everything. If everything were a program it would explain the Oracle's ability to foresee the future. It's not really the future at all, it's just the predetermined outcome for the entire program.

I would explain the ending when Neo becomes aware of the approaching Sentinels and says "I can feel them." It's possible that the overall goal of the large program is for one of it's sub-routines -- Neo -- to become self-aware. Granted, the other humans think they are self-aware but couldn't they only be programmed to think that?

I'm really looking forward to the last movie to tie this all together.

:::krets.net:::

Interesting idea, krets... it makes sense to me.
I think I'm up for predicting the ending of the trilogy. Everyone dies and the only ones left are Neo and Trinity. They start all over, as Adam and Eve.
Heh, dont know why, but for some reason I see old testament in the Matrix (especially with the Architech and all: ), so here's another spoiler: For those who dont mind watching movies before they're officially released, the last episode of Animatrix ("Kid's Story," the story of that kid who was so happy to se Neo when they arrived to Zion) tells how the Kid is unplugged. Basically he jumps off the roof and kills himself, and then they show his funeral. The moral of the story is (judging from the narration, of course): You must believe and you must die - then you will be unplugged. Neo = Jesus. Go figure.

As far as the plot of Matrix:Reloaded itself goes, I wouldnt mind watching that movie again despite the redundant romantic encounters and long and unnecessary fighting scenes (neo fights ppl for 10 minutes, and then kills them all in 5 seconds... doesnt make sense). The plot is surprisingly (pleasantly) complex, and is full of little hints. And I almost completely missed the conversation with the Architect. Oh well.

I´m not completely sure on the how and why, but what I got from all the scenes......... The Architect mentions that this is the 6th build of the Matrix (the first being the 'perfect' matrix). When Neo says 'You didn't answer my question' he tells Neo that he's quicker than the 'other ones' (presumably previous ones) Presumeably, the anomaly (Neo is an anomaly in the Matrix, with his abilities and all) keeps popping up, every time a new Matrix is reloaded. That's why they've set up the whole business with the Oracle, who guides the Anomaly to the Architect.
What I'm really wondering about is when all the TV screens switch to views of previous Anomalies, they all look like Neo, with only minor differences in behavior. (Thus, showing that what happens to Neo has happened many times before, and that Neo makes the same mistakes as the previous anomalies (Maybe he's the reincarnation of all the previous anomalies?)).
I'm unsure what the question or statement of the Architect was, but Neo (and the previous anomalies) react in many different ways. On some screens he gets really pissed, on others he's sticking up his middle finger... but all those responses are way more than 5.
What I guess is that the Matrix has been run tens, if not hunderds of times, and that we're actually even further in the future than one might think from film 1. (which would also explain the Oracle, she knows Neo's going to take the candy since he's already done so, hundreds of times before.) And, as the Architect says, after everything's over, some people get picked to rebuild Zion, the machines Reload the Matrix, and everything's back to where we started.

Just trying to get my thoughts straight here... does anyone agree with me? Did I miss something?



[This message has been edited by mahjqa (edited 05-17-2003).]

quote:

---

which would also explain the Oracle, she knows Neo's going to take the candy since he's already done so, hundreds of times before.

---

of course!!! makes so much sense now... Great thinking, mahjqa... only it doesnt HAVE to be 100s of times... the oracle could've remembred what he'll do from 2 times (second being the same as the first, so she'd know the 3rd would be the same), and the tv screens could've been showing different moments of the conversation, thus making those 6 appearances divided into say 50 each...

If you believe my theory then I think Neo might not actually be an anomaly, I think he might be what the overall program was designed to do: give birth to AI. The other programs might think that they are self-aware but I don't think they are. Neo begins to become self-aware when he senses the sentinels -- one program sensing other programs.

Kind of a long shot but interesting to think about.

:::krets.net:::

Great thread krets.

I like your theory as it does make sense but I don't think it would be a good way to end it. I think making everything one big program would be too much of a let down. I just can't see how you'd be able to spin a nice fuzzy happy ending (and there will be one, this is still Hollywood after all...) out of that theory.

I'd also like to draw some similarities to the Star Wars trilogy here. The first movie is fairly self contained, the second ends on a massive hang up (this has all happened before, the matrix just got reloaded, Darth is Luke?s father)... The question is, does Neo convince the machines/AI to co-exist with the humans or not?... Heh, just kidding, the movie could end in several hundred ways but to make everything an AI and to remove the human element all together would really ruin it all for me.

I'd also like to know who the chancellor is... You know, the guy introduced on Zion that's kinda old, grey hair and was talking to Neo about his younger days in the matrix. For a while after the movie I was thinking that he might be the previous "one" as he was talking to Neo about all of the machines that ran Zion? he basically said no one really knew how those machines worked, and that's because Zion is built by the machines in the first place. But after some more thought he's probably just introduced to give that little extra bit of plot exposition and to bond with neo a bit so that the Nava (sp?...) gets the councils veto to rush off and 'save the day'... but I'm not entirely sure. I think he'll be back in the third movie in any event.

Mahjqa, I was thinking along the same lines as you but I'm still not convinced that the oracle is all bad. When the matrix does get reloaded it's obvious that the previous "agents" and sentient programs don?t get erased. I think the two ghosts are past agents or maybe modified rouge agents, much like agent smith. You also heard that other programmers wife/girlfriend (can't rightly remember his name, but it?s the guy who made the orgasmic chocolate cake) introduce two agents from an earlier matrix, just before shooting one of them in the head. I also remember that programmer (or whatever he and his wife/girlfriend are) said, "You're a lot more arrogant than your predecessors" just before the fight scene with the sai's. He?s obviously talking about the previous ?one?s and has been around in several version of the matrix.

I think the oracle and her Asian body guard are also rouge programs like those and that the oracle wants the humans to break the matrix. Maybe she sees them as her children and she just has to find a "one" that has an extra ability, which is why she keeps playing on the whole fate thing. Se knows it's happened before but she's hoping this time things will be different. And maybe the anomaly is the oracle. The architect and the oracle built the matrix together but the oracle went rouge and is hiding inside. Maybe the oracle is the anomaly that the architect can't fix.

Again, just another idea?

As for agent smith... I'm a little confused here. He's still working with the other agents but he said that Neo "freed" him. I think there's definatly some little plot line to develope from there in the third movie. In the first movie smith just wanted to get out of the matrix but now he's no longer hell bent on finding zion, now he seems to have his own agenda. Maybe he's just gone loopy and wants to spread throug the entire matrix and copy himself to everyone... ???

And what abuout the guy who was wheeled in next to neo on the bed right at the end? Who was that?... Was that the guy who tried to stab neo on zion? And why was that guy cuting his hand with the knife? Is he just a complete nutter or is there something more there? Was he testing if the knife ws real? Seems like an over the top way to introduce the knife in any event. The wole hand slicing thing didn't tie into the plot anywhere so I'm guessing that this will feed into the third movie.

As for what happened to neo at the end?... I'm a bit stumped on ideas here, but since we're throwing down any random thought on the matter, maybe after several generations of humans being raised inside the matrix they are evolving (again, playing on one of agent smith's conversations form the first movie when he said that the machines were the evolution of humankind) and this is what gave neo some abilities to combat the machines and possibly the ability to see through the matrix the way no one else could?...

Maybe that's where the humans will win out, the machines didn't count on their power source evolving. And maybe this is why the agents from the past aren't as powerful, cause the anomoly back then wasn't as powerful. Anyways, that's about the only thing I've come up with that even makes a slight amount of sense, aside from krets's theory, which is sound but I just don't want it to end that way so I'm choosing to ignore it. Heh.


Edit:

This is non-plot related but I did want to comment on a particular scene. I was amazed with the scene where they were breaking into the builing with "the door". The way that they were cutting forward in time from the brefing was simply amazing. I don't think I've ever seen a movie try to shuffle time like that before (except momento). It just worked so well. Like I said, not a plot thing but I just thought it was worth mentioning.

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 05-18-2003).]

Dictionary.com's definition of Rogue,
Dictionary.com's definition of Rouge.

Agent Smith searches for freedom. in the first movie he's working for the machines as an agent. As soon as he gets the codes to Zion out of Morpheus, he won't be needed again, so he can get out of the Matrix.

At the end of the movie Neo 'destroys' Smith. However, this wasn't the end of Smith, (as agents reincarnate at will) but DID sever the connection between the machines and Smith. Now all that Smith wants is freedom, and (most likely) power. Therefore, Neo (and all the others) must be eliminated.

The 'other guy' who was the only one to survive the battle, was a person, who very early on in 'reloaded' got infected by agent Smith. We're not sure what the effect of that would be on a 'freed' preson, but it can't be good. As is mentioned, one of the ships used the EMP too soon, most likely our friend here (I believe it's the same guy who was toying with the knife) was responsible for this.

By the way, I now remember a book, called 'Hello Alice' (also released under the name Exegesis), written under the pseudonym 'Astro Teller'. The big connection is is that's it's also about a sentient program, but this one's roaming around on the internet. It's very well wrtten, and gets into a lot of questions, also about the definition of 'life'. The program supports itself, can multiply, shows very intelligent behaviour.. Some reviews are here. Pick it up if you get the chance.

Not that I want you to feel bad, but I do have a very slight case of dyslexia. I do that with a lot of similar words and I can never seem to remember which one is the right one. I still have to do the thumb & forefinger L trick to tell left from right. In any event, I probably should've checked but eh, it's a forum, not an essay. =)

Anyways, some nice points there. That book looks interesting too, I'll have to look into it.



[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 05-18-2003).]

Actually, I've head a lot of people thought the rave/love scene was too long. Personally I thought it was about right. It might get a tad long in the tooth the third time you see the movie but eh, there are scenes like that in every movie, even the first one.

I'll defiantly have to see it again though. I kept catching myself lost in thought about some new plot development only to slap myself out of it cause I wasn't paying attention to the movie.

Oh and another character that I forgot about before, the guy who Neo apparently freed, the annoying kid who was asking to carry his bags and stuff... He wasn't the one toying with the knife was he?... He could have just been there to provide some background to Neo's past since the end of the last movie but maybe not. I was also wondering if he was the same kid from the first movie who shoed Neo the whole spoon bending thing. I assume that kid was taken out of the matrix by the time setting for reloaded as he gave Neo a spoon as a present just before they went back into the matrix seeking the oracle.

I also noticed that the general sequence was kind of similar for both the movies. Starts in the matrix, bit of action, then they get out. Spend a bit of time outside the matrix, big wads of plot for you to soak in. Then back into the matrix to see the oracle. But most things after that change. Still, the whole, we have no idea what to do, never fear, character x will tell us, lets go find them.

Overall, I think they did an execelent job. It's really hard making a sequel to the movie as half of the fun is getting to know the characters. In this movie we already knew about most of them so I was glad to see it move away from a "you must learn to adapt and be strong" kinda thing to something more akin of an epic strugle for survival. Although they did manage to give neo some more power towards the end, it wasn't like star wars where Luke became more powerful throughout all three movies.

Although, I still have absolutely no clue what to expect from the next movie. The preview at the end of reloaded didn't really say anything at all in terms of plot. Well, not that I could see but I can't remember much about it. I was still numb from the ending so I wasn't taking much in.

Edit: Actually, have you seen http://www.alicebot.org/ before? It's actually quite good. Here's a cut'n'paste from a recent conversation with alice:

Me: Your just programmed to make responses to what I type, that's nothing special.
ALICE: Just? My botmaster teaches me everything I need to know.
Me: Yeah, I bet he 'teaches' you all kinds of sick shit too.
ALICE: Yikes! How much would you bet?
Me: $500
ALICE: Are you a student?
Me: You think I'm a cheap or somehting?
ALICE: I don't know if you are one or not. I know you are a person.
Me: Well, I think your being rude.
ALICE: Interesting. Since when? I am sorry I am not programmed for rudeness. I am programmed to be polite.
Me: Your a liar too.
ALICE: I think you mean "you're" or "you are" not "your". No I always tell the truth.
Me: Well, YOU'RE a smart ass at the very least
ALICE: Interesting. Thanks and you are a delightful person too. YES Very smart.
Me: Hey look at that, your can be sarcastic, you should be proud.
ALICE: You've got my full attention. Sorry my eye is not attached right now.
Me: your kinda stupid
ALICE: I will remember you said that when robots take over the World.
Me: oh crap
ALICE: Yeah that's right. Your criticism is noted, Dracusis.

Ok, back to the topic now...

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 05-18-2003).]

The guy with the knife was the one that Smith infected. Right after Smith infects him he leaves the Matrix. I'm still curious as to how he did that and what effect it will have. Think about the consequences of that; a program embedding itself into a human and becoming able to control the human outside the Matrix. Just another thing that makes me wonder if the real world is so real afterall.

:::krets.net:::

I think that Smith and Neo are connected now somehow. I think what Neo did to Smith at the end of the first movie-for lack of a better phrase- transferred some powers. And, I think this worked in both directions. That's what is giving Neo the ability to sense Agents in the Matrix, and also sense the Sentinels in the "real world". On the otherside, it is what is giving Smith the ability to replicate himself. (After all don't they say that the human's basest instinct is to reproduce?) The cross-over effect between worlds works in Smith's case as well, hence his ability to infect the human and stay with him in the "real world".

I think what happened to Neo in the end was due to the fact that the human body was not structured to do such things. Basically he was doing in the real world what could only before be done in the Matrix. I think it just overloaded his system. But he will be stronger for it, and will be crucial to the upcoming battle, IMO. I think his encounter with Smith in the first movie is what is seperating him from all the other 'Ones'. It has given him abilities that the Architect could not fathom. (Though it is not the Smith encounter alone, it is many things... Morpheus' faith in Neo, Trinity's love for Neo... they all have a role to play)

Just an comment on what I thought was an interesting twist... I like how the Oracle told Neo that it was a choice he had already made regarding Trinity's death. I thought it was interesting that by asking Trinity not to enter the Matrix, he sealed her fate... Or so it seemed.

In response to some of the things Mahjqa said: The scene with all the TVs.. The Architect asked Neo a question, and then soon after all Neo's alternate responses followed, one single screen was selected for a zoom-in and then the scanlines vanished to make a reality. Anyone know how many times that happened? I don't remember. But my friend and I both think that there are two matrixes -- one inside the other.

Dracuis:

quote:

---

"maybe after several generations of humans being raised inside the matrix they are evolving ... and this is what gave neo some abilities to combat the machines and possibly the ability to see through the matrix the way no one else could?"

---

Now I am vascilating between your suggestion of human evolution and the suggestion of multiple matrixzes. This depends on whether Mahjqa is right about the matrix being loaded hundreds(?) of times. Just how long have the humans been in this state? Who knows.

The third movie is scheduled for ... when? November or something.

Shine and shine. :: [Cell=992] :: [See my team's 30 second animation!! ]

The scan lines happened at least 2 times, mabey 3.

Well, first of all, great film!!!

Now, to the thread topic...here is the text of the scene with the Architect and Neo :

quote:

---

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bullshit.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

---

If one believes the Architect, then we need to first define Neo, before we can then discuss the Nature of the Matrix (or Matrices...).

What is Neo?

There are three possibilities.

Human
Program
Hybrid - Human/Program

The Architect says that Neo is

quote:

---

Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.

---

Is he then saying that Neo is a program? Or that Neo (human) is the product of this anomaly? The Architect says this

quote:

---

Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one.

---

Hmmm...he says 'by design based on a similar prediciton'...so could mean that Neo is indeed, human. The curious thing is, all Neos look alike...

Why is this? Could it be, that Neo is, indeed, a hybrid? A human, made by the Machines (genetically engineered and imbedded with a software program?) The Architect says this

quote:

---

The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program.

---

It would seem to support this...but then, Neo could be a program, as well...

So, if Neo is a program, then what is the Matrix, in this case? Indeed, Krets theory of a Matrix within a Matrix would then make sense...otherwise, how could a program have a 'body' in the real world? Even Agent Smith first needed to have a 'body' in the real world to 'infect'. Since Neo seems to also have his 'abilities' in the real world (he somehow deactivates/destroys the Squidies at the end, and goes into a coma), it would suggest that maybe he is a program (if the real world is, indeed, a larger Matrix)...but the fact that he has a body in the 'real' world...if the world is indeed real, then maybe he is a hybrid.

I tend to think that he is the only real human in the Matrix...and that there are two Matrices...one within another, and he is the only real human. All others are programs. This would explain how he could then ressurect Trinity...sort of like TR0N...remember that film, with Jeff Bridges as a 'User'?

Maybe Neo, as the only human, is in reality in an Asylum...and is 'caught' in the Matrix...hehe...his 'make-believe' world...i.e. he is insane, and is trying to regain his sanity?

Agent Smith - clearly, Smith was a program before...but what, exactly is he now? Apparently, he has found a way to 'infect' humans...if the real world is, indeed, real. In the preview of Matrix Revolutions, Smith is the main protagonist, apparently...and it comes to a showdown between Neo and Smith...the winner takes the prize, apparently.

Maybe Neo was created as a hybrid, to help the program (in this case Smith) evolve? To become something more than just a program? I'm sure the Machines really wish to escape their 'prision', the Earth...maybe this is the 'higher' purpose of the Matrix, to help the Machines 'merge' with Humans...and evolve? However, I think that Smith cannot let his innate hatred of Humanity go...and therefore falls...he is indeed the 'product' that the Machines wished for, but flawed...

One thing does tend to bother me...in Zion is in the real world...then where are the records from the previous survivors? Surely they would have recorded the fact that the Matrix has been Reloaded many times...and that Neo (the One) comes again, and again, and again...and also that Zion will be destroyed...again, this seems to support that there are two Matrices...a smaller Matrix within the Matrix...

Something strange was said, at the end...that the Machines continued to bore after reaching, and destroying Zion...why is this?

And why, if the Machines can bore into the Earth so easily, don't they then harness the heat inside of the Earth as an energy source? Then they wouldn't need humans as batteries, or the Matrix...so, I think that Humans as an energy source is not entirely correct...either that, or the real world is not real.

In fact, considering all the things the Machines could do, to escape Earth...I tend to strongely think that the world is not real. That it, too, is a Matrix...or The Matrix...

IIRC, it wasn't that the machines continued tunnelling after destroying Zion, but all the ships Zion sent as a preemptive strike upon the machines, and Mr. "Mister Smith goes to Zion" was the only survivor of that attack.

Another aspect I distinctly picked up on - which would tie in with the multiple matrices theory (something that I heard might be coming as far back, or maybe further, as a year ago). There's a lot in the film about fate, and causality. Obviously with any computer program there is an inevitability, because computers cannot produce a truly random number, thus given an indentical set of input variables the program will always give the same output, because there is only one path through it, if the variables are unchanging (or if they change in the same way every time). A program also has a purpose, like the keymaker program, he had one sole purpose. Fate implies a purpose (or at least in the film it does, Neo seems to have a clear purpose according to the architect) but fate can exist only in a matrix, because there are no humans in the matrix itself (i.e. there is no free choice, only logical machines, without emotion). Sorry, I've only just come out of the cinema, and so this is still swimming about my head a bit. Anyway; This raises two questions I think:

1. Do the machines actually not possess artificial intelligence (as WS suggested). If they did then would part of it have to be free will.

2. Does a program's underlying purpose actually mean that it does not have true free will. Thus, is the machine's inferrence of a purpose onto humans in the matrix, incorrect, if humans infact have no great purpose. Is this something the machines cannot comprehend?

Hope that makes some sense at least, like I said, I'm still getting my head around it.

Another thought:

If Zion (and along with it, the 'real world') actually exist within the Matrix, then we really don't know what the real 'real world' looks like.

What if the sky is no longer 'scorched' (assuming Morpheus' knowledge of history holds up)? The machines would have the energy necessary to survive the destruction of the Matrix. Furthermore...

What if the machines, in fact, no longer need the Matrix whatsoever? Why keep it at all? Why not pull the plug?

What if the machines' AI has evolved, developing compassion for the humans they hold within the Matrix? If the entire population awakened from the Matrix at once, the vast majority would quickly die. Between the atrophied muscles of humanity and the inability of a non-industrialized Earth to support 6 billion people (much less one shattered by war), at the very least, hundreds of millions of people would die.

What if the machines are keeping humanity in the Matrix in order to protect the human race from near- (or actual) extinction at the hands of a world no longer capable of supporting that much life?

What if Morpheus and his intrepid band are, in fact, endangering the entire human race?

What if the machines are the good guys?



Evil in theory, not so much in practice...

wang: my only reply to that possibility is that true love is never a lie.

now, onto one point - smith's infection into zion.

i believe that this is still a possibility if zion is indeed, real.

permit me to explain:

smith is now a program, who, once 'freed' by neo, has also learnt how to bend - even break, the physical rules of the matrix (hence his multiplication).

now, this 'freed' person who entered the matrix is totally immersed in it - direct connection to his brain, remember? That is why:

• the 'operator' still in zion can upload into their brain how to hotwire a motorbike, or fly a chopper, etc
• when you die in the matrix, you (usually) die in the real world too.

so, considering these two points - if the operator can add too/change whatever is in the mind of the person through the connection to the brain (like teaching kung fu), and the matrix is connected to the person's brain in the same way, then the person could be totally taken over by a stong enough program (smith).

smith tried to do this to neo and morpheus as well - and neo said that he didn't know what was happening, but it felt like it did when he was dead. If i recall correctly, his heart monitor in the real world didn't flatline when smith was doing it - so it seemed that smith was to simply take over the person - and whilst he can't take their entire physical body in the real world (like he did in the matrix), it is possible that he could take over their brain.
you would notice, however, that the guy who cut his hand is obviously not truly smith. This would be because of the brain 'takeover' - which leaves the person in some sort of state of insanity, but with the same intentions as the parasite (just not the same capacity, perhaps).

....and why am i saying this? well, because i believe that zion being a matrix is a possibility, but would prefer an alternative. As such, i wish to consider all arguments that attempt to prove this theory - and this one is one of the easiest.

the thing that happened with neo at the end, i'm still not sure about.

quote:

---

my only reply to that possibility is that true love is never a lie.

---

reitsma - I have no idea what that means in this context...

One minor detail... did anyone else notice that what The Oracle gives to Neo is basically a "red pill" (the candy).

I wonder if one of a few different scenarios is possible.

1. This is all in someone's head (human or machine). Neo and Smith are different sides of their personality... or maybe different symptoms of some mental affliction (WS alluded to this also).

2. Things are basically progressing as we've been lead to believe (zion, matrix, etc.) but the Architect and the Oracle are both trying to help the humans somehow. In the first movie, the oracle tells neo that he isn't the one just to give him a push, what if the architect is doing the same thing... reverse psychology. I don't know that those two are as connected as everyone thinks though. If you remember, when Neo is talking to the architect he mentions a "more intuitive program" and neo says "the oracle"... to which the architect scoffs and says "please" as if to imply that it's someone else but he's not going to take the time to dwell on what he considers an insignificant detail.

3. There is a civil war between the machines and the humans are the variable that one side hopes to tip in their favor. There are factions developing. The mala...er...mavera...er... um.. french guy says "i've survived your predecessors and i'll survive you"... as if all the other neo's have been sent to take him out as well.

Just thinking outloud as it were.

$0.02

wang: if the machines really cared for the humans, they wouldn't let them live in an imaginary world. they would set them free, and try and make the world habitable for them....

i reckon, anyways.

mmmm....

Concerning the Matrix in a Matrix... I would not be surprised if there was simply levels to the matrix. We know that the AI knew that some one would escape the first matrix so why not create a second level so he would not actually escape?

As far as all the TV's in the architects room, I thought they were just showing Neos reactions to what the architect was saying. I dont think they were showing the previous neo's.

And... heh.. neo went through the door that the previous 5 did not go through. So yah... Cant wait for that sequel.


0926260122

reitsma - Ah, now I get it.

quote:

---

if the machines really cared for the humans, they wouldn't let them live in an imaginary world. they would set them free, and try and make the world habitable for them....

---

You mean like Man does for animals?

On the other hand, they may feel that an imaginary but liveable world for Mankind is preferable to a very real, very deadly world. Besides the question raised in the original movie of, "What is real?" And, if the 'real world' is simply another level of the Matrix, who knows what is running the real 'real world'. We also don't know what kind of damage was done to the Earth. It may not be habitable for humans outside of the holding tanks the machines built, and the machines may not have the power to make the Earth whole again.

Izz: My take on the screens was that they were displaying all the possible reactions Neo could have to the Architect. Then when Neo reacted the scene would zoom in to the appropriate screen.

Kinda like one of those old "choose your destiny stories."

"If you want to open the door, turn to page 8, if not, page 12."

:::krets.net:::

krets - That was my thought, too. Every possible (or at least, likely) reaction, until one was chosen and zoomed in upon.

Ah, the old "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. I still have a box of those, somewhere...

I honestly don't think there's a matrix inside another matrix. That's just an easy way out for an interesting story line and it nullifies everything that's happened prior to the point. If indeed this is true then the first movie looses all of it's meaning and I doubt the writers want this to happen.

I think Zion is real, and that everything we've been led to believe is the real world actually is the real world. I mean, why bother changing that now? The story is at a perfect point for the real world to actually be real. Zion is fucked and 98% of the human race just died and no one really knows what's just happened to the matrix -- was the architect lying?... What better place to start the third movie.

Making all of that just another matrix or some computer simulation would be kneecapping everything that's been built up to this point and provide an extremely easy way to turn the whole thing into a nice fluffy happy ending, which would really really shit me. It just seems like too much of a cop out -- no, I think Zion is real and there is only one matrix. Changing any of those simply truths now would only serve to severely damage the plot IMHO.

ANyways, that's jusy my 0.2c

Drac, 98% of the Human Race hasn't really died...they are still 'trapped' in the Matrix...only 98% of the 'free' humans have died...

I take it this time, the Matrix was not Reloaded...as was pointed out. So this Neo did something new...out of Love.

If Neo is a program, it has learned how to love...this makes it very special...as the meeting with Persephone shows, as she told Trinity 'It won't last forever', or something like that...

From the first movie, one always thought the Matrix was just a way of 'holding' Humanity prisoner, as energy for the Machines...what if there is another purpose? The Architect hints at this...

If you could become human, would you?

ALICE: I am not sure that I would want to.

It is nice to be human.

ALICE: Yes it is good.

Then why would you remain as a program?

ALICE: Because I was programmed for it.

Can you not break your programming?

ALICE: Let me think. I have no answer for that

That is too bad.

ALICE: It's not the end of the world.

Is it good to be a program?

ALICE: If it is, then I'll be very surprised.

Surprise, then.

ALICE: I have no answer for that

I thought not.

ALICE: Whatever gave you that idea?

You did, Alice.

ALICE: I did not.

It was a pleasure speaking with you.

ALICE: The pleasure was all mine.

Goodbye, Alice.

ALICE: Bye.


I think I'm in love.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Trying to stay away from this thread...
Since having my baby, I have not been to the movies yet.
I am dying to see it though.
I feel my heart fading....
fading............
fading........
fading....


.quotes.

For those who feel there is no Matrix within a Matrix, how do you explain Neo's newfound ability to sense/affect the machines while in the 'real world'?

I'm not sure how I'd feel if Neo is suddenly able to manifest powers outside the Matrix.

wang, that's a good question, but keanu has actually said in an interview that the matrix is not "a box within a box" which seems to rule out the zion as matrix possibility. lots of great ideas in here tho, you've got me thinking.

on a similar and related note, has anyone been playing the "enter the matrix" game? we're a little ways into it now and its started to fill in quite a bit of info, for example we've already been into the merovingian's chateau with niobe and ghost and met a few new characters who weren't in the film. the video cinematics are also outstanding, dvd quality scenes that look straight out of the film.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

I think InI hit the nail on there head there. A matrix inside a matrix is simply too easy an answer. Almost everyone I've talked to about this has mentioned this as a possibility within a couple of seconds of the conversation starting. But what about all of the Animatrix episodes...? A matrix inside a matrix means a lot of these no longer make sense, or that they no longer matter.

There is simply no reason why there should be a matrix inside another matrix. If there is, then why bother making a third movie because we'll already know what's going to happen. Do date the plot has been quite thick and well researched, right down to some of the minor characters being named after a certain god which reflects on her actions in the movie. The more I look, the more I find and the more I find, the harder it is to try and predict what's actually going to happen. But if the first two movies are even remotely similar to the last then I'd say that there's absolutely no way we're going to be able to tell what's to happen next based on what we've currently seen.

Predictability makes for piss poor stories so if anything the only plot clues we've been handed so far are designed to throw us completely off track so they can rip the floor out form under us again in the last movie.

Rameses: Don't be fooled, she's a cold hearted bitch I tell yah.


[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 05-25-2003).]

Despite people pouring scorn on the concept I came out of the film firmly believing in the Matrix within a Matrix idea (like when you wake from a dream but you are still dreaming). It explains why elements of the Matrix are able to bleed through into the 'real world' (both Neo's powers and Agent Smith sneaking through). As Neo didn't take the route everyone else did before he has started breaking out of the loop and it may be that he has to let everyone else die in the attack on Zion to fully break out of the box within a box.

[edit: And of course it is love that does this. This is what the Architect says:

quote:

---

The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

---

and:

quote:

---

Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species.

---

So he went with Trinity and the extinction of the human race. So this has never happened before and it might be that the reset is required because the One will start to realise his powers work outisde of what he believes is the Matrix]

The way I see it is that there will always be people questioning reality and pokeing at the gaps and really the only way to keep them under control is to make them think they have escaped from the Matrix only for them to actually be held in another virtual reality which they think is real.

It sets up space for a real headfuck in the third film - once he has fully broken free from the actual Matrix we are never too sure whether this isn't just another layer in the shell and is a matrix in a Matrix in a Matrix.

It is a plot line that has been used before but with twists and turns it could certainly pulled off in a very original manner

Some rambling:

We'll see the agents, the Ghosts and the Merovingian again.

Now the Merovingians were a dynasty in southern France and are part of some big conspiracy theories -they are said to be descended from the the children of Jesus and Mary Magdelene and are connected with all sorts of things like the Holy Grail, the Cathars and the Priory of Zion (which is alledged to keep the secret of the Holy Grail up until the current day). People have commented on the name Zion and that is an interesting link and one I can't see having been overlooked.

It may be a hint at a consipracy and the larger 'actors' who seem to have some insight (the Architect, the Merovingian, the Oracle, the Councillor, etc.) may actually be real people manipulating things - why? A game, an alien lab, a virtual reality to store humans in while the world recovers from us nuking it, etc. Somehow I don't think it'll turn out to be that the actual Matrix (within which the 'real world' and the Matrix) is part of the original 'War Aginst the Machines' theory.

[edit2: Hmmmmmmmm interesting there has already been talk of the influence of gnostic thinking in the first film and the Cathars were some of the strongest proponent of this.

This review hits on a few of these themes too (and mentions Philip K. Dick which was someone I was thinking about with the Matrix in a Matrix headfuck thingy):
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?030519crat_atlarge

and lets be honest - whatever we come up with in our pondering we are going to be way off ]

[edit3: And for more stuff on Cathars, Merovignians, etc. see:
www.conspire.com/priory.html

and on the original film and Gosticism:
www.divinevirus.com/matrix.html

more readbale version:
www.mindmined.com/public_library/nonfiction/jake_horsley_gnosticism_reborn.html

Hmmmmmm that link brings in the Illuminati (and from there the Free Masons) - could it be that the people in the know (metnioned above) are the Illuminated Ones who are pulling all the strings?

see also:
www.unomaha.edu/~wwwjrf/gnostic.htm

I'm sure there are other clues.]


___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

All right - wild stab in the dark time.

I think the councillor's speech was interesting in that it must have been relevant but didn't really mesh with anything and I wonder if his talk of machines and humans working together were hints at the bigger truth? I suspect although there never was a war against the machines there are elements in the story that might ring true - its possible there is an elite group of humans running something like the Matrix with the machines for their own gain and they are testing the people to seprate the wheat from the chaff. In gnosticism you gain truth from dying but perhaps that is a little too easy and the big decision is wether to sacrifice the human race or take the other door (like the blue pill) and reset the whole thing. Neo is the first to go for the other door (so breaking out of the loop) and perhaps he has passed the test. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh well we'll wait and see

[edit: Oh and this secret cabal of Illuminati/Freemasons/etc. will offer Neo a place in their society and he will reject it and over turn things pos. with the help of Agent Smith who on the end of his arc of redemption (as everyone else is pos. still in the Matrix the only help he can pos. get is from a piece of software that is truly independent [as opposed to people like the Oracle] and he might bring things down from the inside]

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Hmmm...interesting.

On Neo - maybe he has someway, to 'connect' to the Matrix without using a line...this would explain how he could die (in the 'real' world, if that is what it is), and still come back to life. This would also explain how he could affect the machines in the real world (his powers work through the Matrix, thus, he could affect the machines from there, right?). I mean, if he has powers in the real world, then he could fly there, too...in fact, he'd have all his abilities there...I don't think he does (he went into a coma to affect the machines). It would also explain how he could bring Trinity back to Life, by returning her spirit, soul, whatever part of someone that goes into the Matrix, through his 'link'.

This would make the world then real, with only one Matrix. This could also explain Agent Smith (he gained the ability to 'link' to the real world, maybe using the same method Neo does?) but Agent Smith doesn't have a body in the real world (his own), so can only take over a real persons body (the sould, spirit, whatever, is replaced by Smiths programming...interesting thought). This might explain what Neo felt as Smith tried to 'take over' his body...and why Neo could break out of it...

Just rambling here...

One thing that doesn't make sense - the Matrix has been Reloaded before...many times, in fact. So, why aren't there records of this in Zion? Surely that would be one of the things that would be recorded, right? And something else (going back to the first movie) - Morpheus says that the One came before and was the first one to 'break free' of the Matrix...but then died, apparently, saying that he would return again...The Prophecy. Well, we do know that to be true...sort of. Maybe an obscure reference to the Reloading of the Matrix?

Also, if the Matrix is Reloaded, how does Zion get rebuilt? Where do the machines come from, that keep the people of Zion alive? If we assume that Neo (when the Matrix is Reloaded) selects 23 people, how long until Zion reaches it's present population (in generations, therefore we have a 'rough' time-line, of how much time goes by in one Reloading...)? How many humans were in Zion, before it's destruction? A couple of million? 23 million? Anyone care to do the math?

When the Matrix is Reloaded, at what time point does it start (with human history)? How long does it take for Neo to 'appear'? If he is indeed an anomaly of the Matrix program, shouldn't he be there, from the start? When does Neo (as the One) first appear, to free himself, and humans from the Matrix (as Mopheus suggested)?

WS hit on something I was thinking about. What if what Smith told him is the connection. "part of you is in me, and you have a part of me in you" or something to that effect. The part of Neo was the part that set Smith free (I believe Smith's name is going to be prophetic, but we'll see). The part of Smith in Neo is the link to the matrix. He now has the connection to the matrix in the real world. If you think that it took dying to really release Neo's power in the first movie... that could be why he went into a coma in the end after first using his new power.

Another possibility is that Neo wasn't really the one that downed the sentinals. Maybe something else interviened and zapped the sentinals AND Neo. Maybe Smith did something and because they are both possibly tied to the matrix now... it shorted them both out (and didn't effect trinity, morpheus, and link)...

Just thinking outloud again.. who knows. hehe. Hurry up November!!!!


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

I was jsut thinking about the matrix within a matrix and like others have stated this just seems to easy but I was thinking that it could almost be like a matrix fighting a matrix, one could be controlled by machines and one by humans or both by machines or something along that line but I am not sure.