quote:As for completely changing faiths? Can you honestly, HONESTLY say that you would be happy for your children if this happened, and would allow them to practice their new faith in peace? Be careful with your response here, because your biases are very obvious and very open. If you truly were as tolerant as your second quote would have people believe, then a cartoon wouldn't upset you and you wouldn't so wrong-mindedly call it "persecution."
I follow the foot steps of our famous biblical parents, Joseph and Mary...They brought Jesus up as a practicing Jew from birth and when he was twelve he was already preaching in the temple.. They would of never waited till he was twelve and then let him decide... Like them they would of been heartbroken if Jesus became a pagan.. I do believe my children will be life long Catholics as they already are teaching religion in their churchs..and in the footsteps of their savior who starting evangelizing when he was only 12..This is real church.
We were reading up on the Opus Dei organization and were all thinking of becoming members now that we understand what it professes and practices... Since its been in the news here lately with the Di Vinci Code coming out its brought the organization to the surface.. I believe its a good way to practice faith.
Its typical for non-religious to state all faithfull believers are" brainwashed" as in a cult..
Its not brainwashing its love of God who draws us to follow in the way he ordains.
Its typical for non-religious to state all faithfull believers are" brainwashed" as in a cult..
And why shouldn't it be?
It is very typical for brainwashed members of cults to deny their brainwashing, and claim that it is the rest of the world that simply does not understand the truth.
The jonestown folk felt that way. The followers of David karesh, Manson's crowd, and every other cult out there, including the catholic cult.
Just because you beleive your cult to be the 'right' one, doesn't make it any less a cult.
quote:It is very typical for brainwashed members of cults to deny their brainwashing, and claim that it is the rest of the world that simply does not understand the truth.
So that would mean you believe the Jesus movement is a a cult in many forms from day one after Christ ressureciton or is it what you feel Christians have made of the faith in regard to practices, dogma and doctrine that you don't care for. If so,,, then this would be percieved to you as 2000 years and counting worth of brainwashing. Even the best political, philosohical, analytical, superior intelligent minds and scholars have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Are they brainwashed as well according to you? You are just a small mind compared to the great minds of the century. That being said what do you see that they have not.
Your in a very small minority. Even the Islam faith believes Christ was a great prophet and have great reverence for his mother Mary. So your view is in a very small minortity.
2) what does that have to do with anything? The majority of people in the world are not christian. So you are in a minority. Does that change your faith? Of course not. So why bother throwing around such childish and ignorant statements as if they actually mean something?
quote: jade said:
Even the Islam faith believes Christ was a great prophet and have great reverence for his mother Mary.
That may be so, but christians are still viewed as infidels... =)
Not sure what point you are trying to press there...
quote: jade said:
Even the best political, philosohical, analytical, superior intelligent minds and scholars have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
That certainly requires qualification and examples. I'm certain my opinion and yours on who are the 'best' and 'superior' minds are fairly different. There are lists all around of the great minds who have rejected christianity and/or religion in general...
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-25-2006 22:50
Very well said, DL.
quote:Even the best political, philosohical, analytical, superior intelligent minds and scholars have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
And I believe that the Mahatma Gandhi was not Xian, Jade. Nor were the majority of Greek Philosophers or Teachers. Neither were Chinese Astrologers, or those from South America, or the Middle Eastern regions, nor those from India. And neither was Sequoyah - http://www.manataka.org/page81.html.
Just check my sig
In fact, measured on a scale including human history as Science measures it, I would say that is definitely not true.
So, brainwashing and propaganda on your part, Jade.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 04-26-2006 00:30
One of the standard definitions of cult is
quote:A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
Based on this definition you can pretty much lump any religion into the definition of cult.
A primary definition of this is
quote:A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
which would and would not define Christianity depending upon who *generally* would refer to.
Christianity is not easily defined. It is a bunch of people who have differing ideas about their faith from one community to the next and even one family to the next in the same community. I have heard Born Agains call Catholism a cult and Catholics call born again crazy. Were you to take each group separately you would find a number of distinct cults (based on the definition) that believe that Jesus of Nazarath is the resurected son of the one true god.
Why write all this? Just to show you that just because you might have ideas that your beliefs are the norm based upon your community you will find that they are not. When you try and pit any of your beliefs against the world at large you will always find that you are in the minority.
You live in a world where a basic ideas such as *Killing others is wrong* or *Being killed by another is wrong* is not universally held truth. With this in mind trying to make all others see that your far more precise ideologies are a universal truth is near impossible.
Not only is this near impossible but when you gather large groups of people who are trying to do this with oposite agendas you are going to find that the basic idea tha *killing others is wrong* has just been thrown out with the bath water.
In all things tollerance is the key, and I don't know if anyone knows where it went.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-26-2006 07:07
quote:Christianity is not easily defined. It is a bunch of people who have differing ideas about their faith from one community to the next and even one family to the next in the same community. I have heard Born Agains call Catholism a cult and Catholics call born again crazy. Were you to take each group separately you would find a number of distinct cults (based on the definition) that believe that Jesus of Nazarath is the resurected son of the one true god.
Why write all this? Just to show you that just because you might have ideas that your beliefs are the norm based upon your community you will find that they are not. When you try and pit any of your beliefs against the world at large you will always find that you are in the minority.
You live in a world where a basic ideas such as *Killing others is wrong* or *Being killed by another is wrong* is not universally held truth. With this in mind trying to make all others see that your far more precise ideologies are a universal truth is near impossible.
Not only is this near impossible but when you gather large groups of people who are trying to do this with oposite agendas you are going to find that the basic idea tha *killing others is wrong* has just been thrown out with the bath water.
In all things tollerance is the key, and I don't know if anyone knows where it went.
Which is all fine and dandy...as long as the institution in question (cult, if you will ) keeps its beliefs to itself, and does not try to force them on others. Members can consider themselves the Grand High Poobas of truth, and look down their noses at other, less unfortunate "beings" - and as long as they are keeping their beliefs to themselves, fine.
Xianity however is not tolerant; it attempts to force its beliefs on others.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 04-26-2006 07:32
quote: jade said:
I do believe my
children will be life long Catholics as they already are teaching religion in their churchs..and in the footsteps of their savior who starting evangelizing when he was only 12..This is real church.
So by implication, they are still living in your household and are under your protection and/or control. If their faith holds beyond moving out of the home and growing into their own lives, more power to them. My mother probably thought the same way you do, which is why I and two of my brothers went to a Catholic grade school and our youngest brother only went through 6th grade. I was the only one that chose to go to a Catholic high school, but even by the time I was getting ready to goto college I had begun questioning my faith. One thing that I never realized was of value until I moved away from home for the first time to goto college was the morals that I was taught as part of the faith. However, I could keep those morals without the faith, and I've done so. I'm sure my mom isn't too ecstatic that none of her children are practicing anything (afaik, my older brother might be Lutheran if he's anything), but I've fallen away from Catholicism completely. On the odd occasion where I do attend chruch for whatever reason, it's not because I truly believe in the rituals, but because they have a lingering meaning to me based on childhood memories.
Do I believe in a creator? I believe that there is a intelligence that is behind "all this" but to call it God, Jesus, YHWH, Buddha or any other name that the prevalent religions use is not what I think. I'd describe myself as a creative evolutionist, not that it matters.
And I have no idea why I'm rambling tonight. I even updated my blog twice in one day. What's wrong with me?!?!
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 04-26-2006 13:31
quote:In all things tollerance is the key, and I don't know if anyone knows where it went.
To hell in a handbasket of course. =)
But seriously... for me it all gets back to power and control. The more fervent the follower the more willing they seem to allow themselves to be controlled in virtually all aspects of their lives. They operate from 'we belive god hears the smallest voice' ...which is why you get prayers like.... please god help me find my car keys...and while you're at it cancel that tv show. I find that degree of devotion just very very sad.
I find that degree of devotion just very very sad.
I think it's beautiful. My son asks me to play with him every single minute I'm in his vicinity. If not then he wants to watch Batman. If not that then this, then this then this. He rarely has his priorities in line with my own but he loves me, loves to be with me and knows to ask me for anything his heart desires because I have the power to grant it.
I find your perspective on it to be sad to be honest.
Forgive me if I misinterpret you, NoJive, but I think possibly "dependence" would be a more appropriate word that "devotion."
And that sort of dependence is expected for a child. Children can't always help themselves and are therefore dependent on their parents. By the time you're an adult, however, such dependencies should be overcome. I'd say it would be highly inappropriate for an adult to act like a child in such a way, asking someone else to take care of every little thing.
By the way, as Jade has addressed only the peripheral points of others' posts, I've completely lost track of this thread's purpose.
quote:Only last week, "South Park" won broadcasting's prestigious Peabody. Awards director Horace Newcomb said at the time that by its offensiveness, the show "reminds us of the need for being tolerant."
This is probably the most important part of that news story and I think it's that point that you are missing, Jade. You need to understand that there is a huge difference between the faithful and the religious (to me anyway). You don't need religion to be faithful and you don't need faith to be religious. I see this proven every day by religious hypocrits worldwide. I have faith in many things. All that means is I believe something that can't be proven. I do not continue to believe things that are proven to be different from my beliefs. That would be foolish. I do not attempt to convert people to my way of thinking in any way what-so-ever. If someone asks. I answer. If they don't ask... they don't know. That is my definition of tolerance. I don't wear my beliefs like a banner to express them to everyone and anyone. You're Christian... big deal. That guy over there is gay.... Big deal. I don't care about your personal choices until it's impossible for me to avoid them. There is something abrassive and uncouth with taking something as personal as sexuality or faith (or any other ridiculous thing to have pride in) and throwing it into the public arena.
quote:When they get older they can choose for themselves. what faith they want to die with.
Funny, that. I though Faith was supposed to teach you how to live not how to die.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 04-27-2006 07:39
I find that degree of devotion just very very sad.
Very poor phrasing/choice of words on my part.
I wasn't at all thinking about 'children'... and how their parents may or may not be devoted to them but rather those individuals so wired (devoted) to a god they will actually pray to their god and ask her to help them find their eye glasses, car keys and similar.
The 'we believe god hears the smallest voice' is a direct quote from some church literature and has nothing to do with 'children..but everything to do with eye glasses and car keys.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-27-2006 18:31
JK, you exist. Your son exists. The interactions between both of your reinforces the fact that you both exist. Being dedicated and devoted to real things, especially living things, is a very valuable trait to have.
However, now apply that which your son does, to an "imaginary" friend. Not you (you get ignored, and/or pushed to the side, in favor of "bob").
Would you start to get concerned about your son? Would you still find that beautiful?
If it was my daughter, I wouldn't. I'd be concerned as hell.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote:Which is all fine and dandy...as long as the institution in question (cult, if you will ) keeps its beliefs to itself, and does not try to force them on others. Members can consider themselves the Grand High Poobas of truth, and look down their noses at other, less unfortunate "beings" - and as long as they are keeping their beliefs to themselves, fine.
I heard it put like this and I agree with it. (Don't think I'm trying to force you to see it this way. Once I type this you can choose for yourself to agree or not. ) What if almost all the people in the world had a deadly disease. They were dying left and right with no cure in site. Then one day a person found the cure. Would he want to hoard himself up and not speak about it, or would he want to share it with the whole world so they too could be saved from this disease? And likewise you can refuse the cure. But why would anyone who is dying refuse a cure that could save their life? This is why Christians tell you about Christ. We believe that sin is the disease that is going to kill you and send you to a burning hell and that Christ is the cure that can save you from this death. What if you saw someone about to walk out in front of a bus and you had time to warn them of the danger but you just sat back and watched them stroll out unknowingly into the traffic? I'm sure you would feel bad about it later. Most of us would anyway. By not telling our kids about Christ and raising them up the way we believe to us it's just like letting our 5 year old decide for it's self if it wants to look both ways before crossing the street. Are you going to do that? More than likely you are going to arm your child with the knowledge and understanding of this world to prepare it and then when it's time you have to let the child go and be a man or a woman. Even then you don't have to like what they become. If they go out and pull for the Braves when your team is the Dodgers then you'll have to deal with it. You can root for your own team anyway. Right in front of them if you want. I probably should have put a paragraph in this.
I also meant to talk about not watching or listening to things that offend you. There is this one radio show, Walton and Johnson, and I listen to them when I'm at work. I miss a lot of the show during the time that I'm at work but I do catch bits and pieces. I agree with them on a lot of topics. There are some that offends me though and I will turn them off for a month or so. They would probably find it amusing.
Non-believers aren't the only ones getting something shoved down their throats. If you've watched TV lately it seems everyone is trying to cram something in your head to make you think the way they do. From politicians to homosexuals to homosexual politicians. Ban gays, don't ban gays. Silence the Christians, let the Christians speak. Don't ignore my race, ignore that race. Guns cause crime, mine are defective. Send money now. Feed the hungry. (Please move them to better land.) Buy my CD! Get the Joke of the Day! Get this guitar and you can play like Estiban.
Then to loosely quote Blazing Saddles "What are your qualifications?" "Rape murder theft and rape" "You said rape twice." "I like rape." Just because we like something doesn't mean it's ok or right to do it. Most of the sins you will commit against someone else. Lying, stealing and other stuff like that. Christians or religious people don't make it any easier putting even more restrictions on what can and can't be done. Don't wear makeup. Don't wear pants if you're a girl. No kilts if you're a guy. Make sure the sleeves of your shirts come down to your forearm. Be sure that skirt is so tight we can read the label of your underwear. No TV but don't let anyone know I have one in my closet. Some churches are stricter than they need to be. Some are to lax. Just say 17 hail Marys and you will be absolved from killing those people. Why do they even do this? If they would read the bible then they would see that Jesus died for our sins. The veil was torn from top to bottom. (The veil was the thing separating people from the Holy of Holies in the temple where priests would enter to talk to God.) That means we can talk directly to Him cutting out the middle man so to speak. Sorry I got off my first train of thought but there is a lot of things about the Catholic church I don't understand. They don't seem biblically sane.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-29-2006 11:25
The difference between having a cure for a disease, and wishing to share it, and having a BELIEF that one has a cure for a disease, and wishes to share it, are lightyears apart.
The first is proven, can be reliably tested to work by others, and actually does cure the disease.
The second is not proven, and there is not one iota of evidence that anyone has been able to reliably demonstrate that it works, and there is no evidence, whatsover that it cures anything.
As such, attempting to force the second example on others has no basis for doing so, other than a group or institution has decided to attempt to do so against the will of those who do not wish to believe.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
You're missing my point. To someone who does believe, they are not light years apart, they are the same.
quote:...other than a group or institution has decided to attempt to do so against the will of those who do not wish to believe.
You're just going to have to get used to this one my friend. Everyone gets things forced on them against their will. I still have to open the door, take the pamphlets, smile, shut the door and take the watchtowers to the trash.
And did you hear about the new technology that will recognize a commercial and prevent you from turning the channel? Hows that for forcing something down someones throat? I can't imagine how they would sell it to an individual unless they didn't give them a choice. Wow choice. What a concept. Even though we can't always choose what our ears hear and our eyes see we can always choose if we apply that information or just discard it.
quote:Everyone gets things forced on them against their will. I still have to open the door, take the pamphlets, smile, shut the door and take the watchtowers to the trash.
No, you don't have to open the door. You don't have to take the pamphlets. You don't have to smile. If you choose to do so, then as you said, you can throw the Watchtowers in the trash. Nothing was forced on you. Nothing.
quote:Even though we can't always choose what our ears hear and our eyes see we can always choose if we apply that information or just discard it.
Which completely contradicts your point that we must get used to things being forced on us. If you have the choice, then nothing was forced on you. You make the choice to turn the radio back on and listen to Walton and Johnson after they've offended you. And you do so knowing they will eventually offend you again. Your choice. To watch TV knowing that someone will eventually mention tolerance of homosexuality is your choice.
If you want to avoid all of that, then stick to TBN. And when the day comes when the Jehovah's Witnesses rally together to remove any programming that teaches the Trinity, then you can complain about something being forced on you.
I find it sickening that you believe anyone has to accept things being forced on them.
The fact that you feel these people actually have a *right* to intrude on you attempting to force their beliefs on you, and you are somehow obligated to accept it politely is a very big problem.
There are plenty of other problems in what you are saying, which Wes did a good job of touching on (might wanna read his post, or re-read it, while you're here ), but I'm stuck on that one...
Then take away the welcome mat. Would you be more tolerant if they were just sitting at airports handing out flowers?
TBN is full of people playing church and begging for money to make themselves rich. There probably is some sincere people on a few shows (John Hagee appears to be) but I don't watch TBN.
having a very difficult time correlating what you said to what i said...
seems to be a pattern there too
Yep, I'll say that again!
However, nobody said anything about having to be mean to anyone. There are more than just two options - be mean, or grin and bear it. Have you ever thought of politely saying "no, thank you. good bye." ?
"Either it's all okay, or none of it is" says Kyle in that particular episode. Can't agree more! What's worse; having a dig at religious issues (fanatical or otherwise) or excusing a bunch of morons and scumbags for maiming and killing fellow citizens and destroying property over a perceived slight, who in-turn excuse their own actions in the name of their religion?
My greatest problem with religion is that "the religious" all seem to think they're the ones that should be untouchable. It smacks of the very hypocrisy and intolerance that these same religions apparently preach against.
I've always found South Park hilarious, if a little close to the knuckle from time to time. It may be because I don't follow any strict religious practices, but it may also be because I have a sense of humour (albeit, somewhat twisted) and I have always thought religion to be a throwback to a less enlightened era of human development.
Just my opinion, but I'm glad I live in a society where religion hasn't over-ruled my right to share it. :P
First, If it takes or uses tax money, no religion.
If it's religious in nature, no taxes. This way religion really has not right to meddle in government.
No door to door solicitations, If the person is interested in your paticular belief, then they will come to you.
No FCC, it is not the government's place to tell you and I what we can and cannot see or hear. If you do not like what is on cable television, then do not A)watch that paticular show/channel or B)don't get cable.
Personal responsibilty is the only thing that should govern what is on TV. Normally networks will cancel show with low ratings. You can voice you opinions about content by simply not watching.
Known Religious figureheads are not allowed to hold public office. period. People like Falwell & Robertson have a widely know religous agenda and therefore would be violating the constitution because they could not keep there religion and politics seperate.
Jade, I sometimes cringe when I realize people like you live in my state. I don't give a rat's ass what you want to believe, but I will not consent and bend over to allow Religious Organizations and Beliefs take control of my State and Nation. There is a good reason why the Founding fathers made sure to seperate church and state. They might have been christian, but that is not a valid excuse to allow the Religious Right to control and dictate what this country sees. In England, the Anglican Church was the state religion. The Founding Fathers added the seperation of Church and State to make sure that the new government could not dictate what you practice. Your Religion is YOUR business, and don't try to push any of your religious beliefs on me.
People like yourself complain about countries such as Iran, where a Ayatollahs control the nations government. You say that it is a evil country because religous extremist control it. How is that any different from allowing our government reference God as a justification of it's acts. For no other reason outside of violating the first amendment, the President and Congress should be removed from their offices.
Ok, Im on a rant, but I cant help it. Onto the Soapbox again...
Another thing, for centuries the only persecution going on was christians harassings others. Everytime I see your topic I get aggravated to no end. Christianity has morphed from the original idea of love thy neighbor and the golden rule to a religion of exclusion and hatred. Yet on the same note I do agree with you jade, I wholeheartedly think christians should be persecuted every once in awhile. If not for the sheer irony, but for the "Up Yours" to show you how it feels to truly be oppressed and have things forced on you that you don't like, but there isnt anything you can do about it.
There I'm done. Sorry for the long rant.
---
I suck at graphics, I suck like a black hole...
Well Patrick.. I am not surprised about your post...In fact that pretty much sums of what most of many posters feel on this asylum regarding religious.
But...Christianity and many religious organizations are here to stay and within the last century they grow larger and more powerful and even affect the choice of politicians we chose. Therefore they will have a say in government. So you may have to just get used to them. With the enormous growth of hispanics in the last century here in the USof A, even more so because 99.9 precent of them are Chrisitians. So why don't you mellow up.
Christianity and many religious organizations are here to stay and within the last century they grow larger and more powerful and even affect the choice of politicians we chose.
Again you show your complete ignorance of history.
The church is less powerful in the modern era than in any previous time.
posted 04-25-2006 16:09
am I the only who feel like in the twilight zone when reading jade's lyric flights ?
sorry [/edit]
