quote:Again you show your complete ignorance of history.
The church is less powerful in the modern era than in any previous time
I wonder who the real ignorants are. It sure isn't me. The signs are upon you and your not seeing.
Per Dr. Muqtedar Khan a Director of International Studies and Chair, Political Science Department at Adrian College in Michigan:
The rise of political Christianity, a coalition of white born again Christians, conservative Catholics, African Americans and Hispanics, is concerned with more than gay marriages and abortion rights. Political Christianity seeks to breach the wall of separation between the Church and State and wishes to make this country a Christian nation. America has been experiencing nativist Christian resurgence that is both self righteous and ?untraditional?.
It is unwilling to compromise and is uncomfortable with enduring American traditions of religious tolerance, freedom of conscience, fundamental equality of all and appreciation for diversity. This nativism can be heard in the calls for restoring America?s moral values and in political works of scholars such as Sam Huntington who ask, ?Who are we?? or in the fears of Pat Buchanan who declares ?The Death of the West?.
George W. Bush has returned to the White House on these nativist fears. He is probably convinced that God is firmly in his corner and his mission to ?save America? is indeed divine. He is going to charge into battle against dragons overseas and wrestle monsters at home. By George!, America will be born again, pure and Christian.
On November 2nd political Christianity captured the White House, the Senate, the House in Congress and the Supreme Court. Bush is expected to appoint anywhere between 2-4 Supreme Court judges which already enjoys a 5-4 conservative edge. With every branch of the government under control ? effectively neutralizing the much-touted divisions of power in the American constitution ? political Christianity has taken American democracy hostage.
It is time for American Muslims, American Jews, American Hindus and Buddhists, American Christians who are moderate, secular and liberal, to come together to form a moderate and pragmatic center, eschewing the aggressive anti-religiosity of the extreme left, respecting the religiosity of the right, to restore balance, and preserve American democracy and its traditionally balanced relationship with its first institution ? religion.
It's no use trying to reason with Jade. When it comes to people who fear God's wrath if they try to think beyond what they've been taught, all logic is thrown out the window.
Besides, anything we say that doesn't support free control of morality by her and the other closed-minded religious zealots will be seen as persecution, as has already been demonstrated. And people like her love to feel persecuted because it makes them feel like living martyrs for God. The more fuss they make in the name of Jesus, the more they get "put down," and the higher a place they earn in heaven.
Personally, I thank God I was eventually able to see things from more than one side and to realize the only way to preserve my own freedoms was to respect those of others.
Bible pages may be translucent, but you can't see everything through them.
Jade, I will not mellow up, till I see undeniable proof of a god. I will not bow down to the Christian Church and just go with all the sheep. Only a weak person has to use religion or spirituality as a crutch to support themselves. I have religious people in my family and I think they are weak. Religion is not faith, rather it is a means of control.
If you cannot be responsible to yourself first, how can you be responsible to others? I ask you jade, what couldve possibly pushed you to so fervently accept "god?"
*edit*
Also, Jade your nice big quote proves that im right. The religious right want to destroy our constitution. If your cool with that, fine, but of course that is treason in a technical sense. Do you wish to destroy the representative government that has been stable for 219 years(1787-2006) and replace it instead with a Iranian-like Theocratic Republic?
Why is it that people say Christians are closed minded because they won't bend, however the non-believers are the same way. It's always "You see things my way!" "No you see it my way!" "Closed MINDED!" "Closed MINDED!" Sounds silly to me.
Patrick tell me... What politician doesn't have an agenda?
As long as I can retain my right to change the channel, I don't care what Christians choose to put on television. Whether it's "Touched by an Angel", "Joan of Arcadia" or the EWTN channel the fact remains that I don't have to watch. I am not being persecuted because such programming is on tv. I don't howl in agony every time a new God themed show is produced. Christianity is not my cup of tea, but I respect the rights of a large number of Americans to enjoy their religous entertainment. It would be nice if a certain group of Christians shared the same respect and stopped trying to meddle with my entertainment because they don't know how to work the change channel button on their remote.
As a side note - I only bring up these Christian examples because I have yet to see a similar example for Islam, Buddism, Hindu, Wicca, Zoroastrianism or whatever else floats your boat. But if there were, I would still retain my right to change the channel should I choose. I fear the day when I lose that right.
I'm not entirely sure that what I just posted was really relevant to the direction this thread was going. But I'm tired and it was on my mind.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 05-04-2006 08:09
quote:Why is it that people say Christians are closed minded because they won't bend, however the non-believers are the same way. It's always "You see things my way!" "No you see it my way!" "Closed MINDED!" "Closed MINDED!" Sounds silly to me.
No, it is "keep your beliefs to yourself!" - I don't particularly care what others believe in, as long as they keep it to themselves. If I want to beleive in something, I will seek it out on my own.
I don't need (or want) a State, Government, Institution, etc TELLING me what I have to believe.
Therein lies the difference.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
I know of no politician who doesnt have an agenda. Except for maybe Ron paul (R-tx), my congressman.
Lobbyist bother me the most, they have more influence than any constituency. It's a shame to because it seems a majority of people dont mind and allow for it to continue.
---
I suck at graphics, I suck like a black hole...
It is very important to note the difference. While there are clearly people on both sides who do in fact try to push their beliefs on everyone around them, *for the most part* you will find that people on the religious side of the debate will be the ones agressively pushing for the rest to conform to their beliefs, and pushing for legislation that foreces people to conform to their beliefs.
When you see it from the other side, it is usually not related to that person's specific beliefs, but rather pushing that everyone has different beliefs, and we live in a nation that has specifically designated freedom of (from) religion.
quote:No, it is "keep your beliefs to yourself!" - I don't particularly care what others believe in, as long as they keep it to themselves. If I want to beleive in something, I will seek it out on my own.
I don't need (or want) a State, Government, Institution, etc TELLING me what I have to believe. Therein lies the difference.
No Christian orgainization that I know of forces anyone to believe.. They inform you in the way of evangelizing and they are free to do so. Just like you are free to not listen. Have they physically embeded in your mind like a micro chip or something?
You adhere to your countries politicans when you vote in line with their beliefs.. You are choosing because of some tv ad, mailout, internet info or a poliitical aid called to tell you why to vote for his canidate and you have the freedom to choose, but you could not make a decision unless you seeked or were informed about his/her positions on certain matters. So what is the difference with that and the religious seeking or contacting you in regard to faith matters.
Christianity is "showing who Christ was and is" We can only show this by living it and reflecting it. Words are not as important as example but many are moved by words out of the mouth of those who are his sheep. So TELLING and REVEALING are very important. We follow this way of the Good Shepherd because we know of no othe way. We shephard our children and the children of God to the ways of the Lord
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith unto him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; Thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, Thou knowest all things; Thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep" (John 21:15-17
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, who own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:11-15 RSV)
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." (John 10:1-5 RSV)
Jade, have you forgotten completely why you started this topic? You intimated that a certain TV show episode should not be allowed to air. You actually said:
quote:Sometimes censorship can be a good thing.
This demonstrates your arrogant belief that your personal views should be forced on anothers -- that you, or a certain group of people, should be allowed to decide what others get to watch or hear.
Jade, have you forgotten completely why you started this topic? You intimated that a certain TV show episode should not be allowed to air. You actually said:
quote:Sometimes censorship can be a good thing.
This demonstrates your arrogant belief that your personal views should be forced on anothers -- that you, or a certain group of people, should be allowed to decide what others get to watch or hear.Get it?>sigh<
And that really sums up everything that needs to be said.
Wild scripture-quoting tangents certainly have nothing to do with it...
That kind of airing is wrong because of what it implies in that it is very hurtful to many persons of faith. It shows arrogance, ridicule, bigotry, calousness and insensivity and hate. This is the opposite of what our Christiain faith is. For you not to see this and you agreeing with the programing only proves my view.
How would you like to see your own flesh and blood father defacting on your mother in public tv that someone caught on air or they having sex for that matter? Or how would you like to see your child being peed on by a male for gratification on air.
Would that hurt you or would you shrug if off and agree with freedom of press, speech and so on.
That kind of airing is wrong...
...and you agreeing with the programing only proves my view.
Who said anything about agreeing with it?
That's the whole point: it is irrelevant whether or not you agree with it! It's not your place to say. it is not for *YOU* to force *YOUR* view of this on everyone else.
*That* is the bottom line. That's all there is to it...
quote: jade said:
How would you like to see...
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
Who tied you to your chair and forced you to watch this episode?
Oh, that's right...you didn't see it, you simply read a news article about it...
So....explain to me again exactly how this was harmful to you?
It hurts me personally. I am personally hurt and sickend with heartache because I love Jesus the person. He is very dear to me..He is in me. You couldn't possibly understand. I can't expect you to feel what you never have understood your whole life.
I never saw the segment. I read about what was showed in regard to how he was violated in caricature.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 05-05-2006 08:06
quote:No Christian orgainization that I know of forces anyone to believe.
EVERY xian organization that I know of has forced muliludes to believe in it, even to the point of pain of death. Examine your history.
To this day, there are still attempts by every xian organization and instution to force others to believe in it. From Kindergartens in Germany (where they are privately funded - and most are in the hands of the xian Church, and Religion is force taught) - to many Native people who were forced to give up their beliefs for those of the xian Church. There are many, many other examples.
Jade, first you say
quote:They inform you in the way of evangelizing and they are free to do so. Just like you are free to not listen. Have they physically embeded in your mind like a micro chip or something?
But then you say
quote:That kind of airing is wrong because of what it implies in that it is very hurtful to many persons of faith. It shows arrogance, ridicule, bigotry, calousness and insensivity and hate. This is the opposite of what our Christiain faith is. For you not to see this and you agreeing with the programing only proves my view.
The only thing that it proves (what I have quoted from you) is that you are wrong. If you wish to say that the xian Church is free to evangelize, etc and that others are free not to listen, then it is also true that TV is free to air South Park episodes and that xians are free not to listen.
You stumble over your own words. In fact, you have contradicted yourself. You give the impression that you adamantly believe that the xian Church has some sort of right to force itself on others. That anything to the opposite, any type of criticism or paraody is blasphemous!
Good thing we live in a free country. How would you like to be forced to practice the Moslem religion? And by that, I mean a really streng version of it, like that the Taliban is representive of. [Note : this is not to say that the Moslem religion is in any way, shape, or form better or worse than any other religion, before someone gets the wrong idea].
It would seem to me, that you would not like that. But you wouldn't have a problem with a very streng Catholic belief being forced on everyone, would you?
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Harmful \Harm"ful\ (h[aum]rm"f[.u]l), a.
Full of harm; injurious; hurtful; mischievous. " Most harmful
hazards." --Strype. --Harm"ful*ly, adv. -- Harm"ful*ness,
n.
[1913 Webster]
DL, I see the word "hurtful" here as one of the defintions of harm. I think when Christ was in his passion he suffered greatly and his devoted diciples were wounded and heartbroken to see him suffer as were his mother and many followers in the way he was mistreated. So he continues to be mistreated by unbelievers for what he stands for which is compassion and love. To use him in a segment which ridicules and dishonors him in the most horrible way affect us all who love him. As I have noted before you don't understand because your not a follower. Though we can cry out in protest at the airing of the segment, all we can do is pray for the persons who are doing the deed. Unlike Muslims we do not seek death or push any threats, but to be silent on the issue in the name of Christ our Savior is to be un Christian.
all we can do is pray for the persons who are doing the deed. Unlike Muslims we do not seek death or push any threats
Your short term selective memory is quite interesting.
You aren't simply praying for these people, you are attempting to limit their ability to put forth their ideas and beliefs, ie forcing your beliefs on them.
It is very admirable that you don't wish anyone's death as a result of a silly late-night cartoon , but calling for the forced banning of such expression follows the same mentality as those who call for the death of people with who express those thoughts.
This is what you need to understand Jade: it is not a matter of me not being able to understand *what* you are saying. It's a matter of getting you to think critically about what you are saying...
Jade - There are worse things happening in the world today than having the center of your religion mocked. So your beliefs, feelings, convictions, whatever were hurt by the theme of this show. So what? A few years back, a couple of radio hosts were mocking the religion and beliefs I held dear at the time. It made me angry, I felt personally insulted. I felt indignation on behalf of my fellow believers. I was especially angry because the event they were mocking was akin to a Christian prayer vigil - something that the practitioners were only doing to benefit the community. I even called the station to complain that what they were saying only showed ignorance of the subject. I wanted them to take it back and apologize. But you know what? Eventually I figured out that 1) they were exercising their right to free speech, 2) that despite my initial reaction to their comments, I was personally unharmed and my beliefs were still as strong as they had been - I had made the choice to be angry, 3) the religion itself was still intact and free to practice as usual. In fact - I eventually recognized that they were not truly mocking the religion, but the stereotype - the basis of almost all comedy. My point of this is: It was only hurtful because I allowed it to be.
We live in a country where freedom of/from religion matters, jade. If you ever sat down and watched South Park, you would understand that absolutely nothing is sacred on that show. It's one of the things I love most about it. No one is free from ridicule - they are an equal opportunity offender. Because of this - i think it is one of the most honest commentaries on how ridiculous our society can be.
As I mentioned before; pick your battles. You have made the choice to be offended on behalf of your religion. There are many other activities that you could be devoting your energies to rather than calling for the censorship of a show you don't even watch.
quote:We live in a country where freedom of/from religion matters, jade. If you ever sat down and watched South Park, you would understand that absolutely nothing is sacred on that show. It's one of the things I love most about it. No one is free from ridicule - they are an equal opportunity offender. Because of this - i think it is one of the most honest commentaries on how ridiculous our society can be.
I'll second that.
We all need to be a little more offensive and a lot less sensitive. I personally try to offend at least one person every day, just to keep in practice.
Jade, after reading through this thread, my sincere advice to you would be to learn to think for yourself. You may be under the impression that you are thinking independently, as I once thought not too long ago, but you are not. You are anchored. Anchored to a lifetime of forcefed propaganda and preconceptions, not just religious, but societal. Let it go.
Trust me, it is the best thing you could ever do, and doing so does not invalidate your faith in God. It will allow you to think outside the confines of your programming and will lead you down a path of discovery & personal growth you once thought impossible. Discovery and personal growth are not sin in the Catholic mandate are they?
You may not have any idea what I am talking about, but, God willing, perhaps you will... one day.
And for the record, DL.. I have told you before that I can voice and stand out for the unborn and petition and protest their innocence and can only pray for those who do such a terrible horrendous murder. I cannot go and forcibly make anyone stop aborting. Prayer is more powerful than any other action. So I continue to do so and voice my opinion as well and this opionion in no way can be comparered to the visual ridicule that is infliction on the memory of your beloved Christ.
I pray my teapot every day for the crazy nuts realize that the Da Vinci Code is a novel. Alas the means of the teapot are mysterious and it doesn't seem to hear me
I will say the irony is quite amusing that when being accused of not being able to think for yourself your response is to tell us you're not the only one who thinks the way you do...
And uh....what the hell does the davinci code have to do with anything?
In spite of everything I learnt about physics, I didn't know prayer [was] more powerful than any other action... Oh Jade, I feel completely outdated now. I guess in a few years we can expect all our cars to be powered by prayers ?
Come on Jade, any sane person who would have been proven wrong as many times as you were in this thread would reconsider his/her beliefs... You just don't. You call that 'faith', I call that plain stupidity...
Its been proven when one resorts to name calling like "stupidity" it reveals their character.
DL I was trying to get you to view that a moral consciences dictactes we care for others as well as ourselves in that we are not selfish. The church is speaking out against the movie coming out saying that it will offend many Christians and I am saying the same thing about airing a segment that offends another.. If we were a more caring nation we would not do or say things to offend and hurt each other as humans just to get a laugh. We would consider anothers beliefs and feelings. This is Christianity in its fullness.
From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 05-08-2006 19:56
He did not call a person *stupidity* he called an action *stupidity* this is not name calling. But it was a nice attempt to dodge that bullet. Now I see what WS means when he refers to your dodging and weaving.
I am going to resort to name calling however. I will call you Teflon Jade. Thow all you want at her and none of it sticks.
Is it suppose to stick? Anyway I kinda like "Teflon Jade"
I would like to think of a army shielding me. Like St. Michael
and all his armor and of angels..
Jade - yes, you've said that several times so far. But you still aren't addressing any of the points raised, or grasping any of the things being said to you here.
The one thing I will repeat: the episode in question, and the show in general, does not set out to hurt people just for a laugh. What it does is make a point, most often using some very unreserved approach. When you react with offense you miss the point completely.
As was said above: YOU choose to allow such material to be offensive to you. That's YOUR issue.
As for the da vinci code: offensive?
This opens up a whole new arena of idiocy if feel this book and this movie to be offensive. Disagree with it? Great. Feel the need to point out Brown's multitude of historical inaccuracies? Even better.
Take offense at it? Truly baffling. If you have the strong faith you claim, you would do no more that roll your eyes...
If your faith can be offended and harmed by a cartoon and a novel, you have some serious issues to deal with in your "faith"
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 05-09-2006 18:13
DL- Thank you for that ^ because when I read it (link) earlier I reached the same conclusion and couldn't for the life of me figure out why someone would post something that so clearly undermines their position.
I think the only way to get out of it what Jade seems to is; apply the Da Vinci code to the article during a full moon while Poi pours 'something' from his Teapot. This must take place in an isolated field of course and Poi must be naked. =)
posted 05-03-2006 19:56
)
, but calling for the forced banning of such expression follows the same mentality as those who call for the death of people with who express those thoughts. 
