quote:Personally, I feel that any being that could create 'night' and 'day' at least three days before it created the sun and the moon has some pretty neat tricks to explain, but I'd at least have to argue that the 'lesser' light was technically a reflector...
quote: Gideon said:
However, if you believe there is no God, you believe that you aren't accountable to Him.
Clearly.
quote: Gideon said:
However, you don't assume the responsibility of sins you have committed against God. Every time you sin, you are saying that you know better than an all knowing God...a pretty risky move if you ask me.
If there were such things as gods, then maybe.
quote: Gideon said:
God will put those out of His sight who sin, because He cannot stand imperfection.
Well then, if the god you believe exists has done the things he is said to, then he must be putting himself out of his sight, as he has shown himself in his own book to be the epitome of imperfection.
quote: Gideon said:
That is why none of us are guaranteed a place in God's Kingdom.
quote: Gideon said:
However, if we repent of our sins and believe that Jesus did die in our place, then we can secure that place in heaven.
Hmmm...........
quote: Gideon said:
I think White Hawk came the closest to assuming his actions himself. He left the air open that if there was a God then he would be judged by that God.
As most of us have said repeatedly. As I said myself a few posts above. None of us here that condemn living life according to fairy tales have ever taken the stance that we are going to live the way we do only because we don't fear reprisal. You should be well aware of that, Gideon. That you do not acknowledge that is very presumptuous and arrogant of you...
quote: Gideon said:
That is a pretty hard step to take, since it means humbling yourself to another authority. Even if it is hypothetically
Humility is something you live. It doesn't take gods to live humbly. In fact, as many have said over and over, belief in gods is a very arrogant thing in itself, and it has the very real tendency to push people into arrogant lives, all while they preach humility.
{{edit -
oh, and I must have missed the "rawr" par here... I'm afraid you may be developing a Jade sized martyr complex
quote:Personally, I feel that any being that could create 'night' and 'day' at least three days before it created the sun and the moon has some pretty neat tricks to explain, but I'd at least have to argue that the 'lesser' light was technically a reflector...
This is not a brillant statement, just one who is ignorant of scripture revelation. The writers of the Genesis book are revealing the stages in which God created the beginnings. Days refer to completeness of each task. The writers didn't see God do all those created days and what God accomplished as he was doing it. No one has seen God in his Glory yet that we know. So how can they know. Through the writers revelation God has chosen to give them they relate to us with a way to make the story of creation come down to our way of thinking with their Hebrew words. God didn't go to sleep and wake up every day as we know days. The time span of these days could of been an instant or take billions of years. What is most important to the reader about the verses is all is created and comes from God. From the original text in Hebrew the meaning may give a different view but lead to the same orignal intented revelation that God wants us to understand and know and relate to others. This may be hard for an unbeliever to accept but one who responds to the call of the spirit of God will within themselves will accept that all comes from God. They may have doubts and question the Genesis writings in the way of the story telling of the prophets in those times, but yet still they have faith in the God of Adam, Moses and his chosen people. For me I need not see God to know God. I feel God.
Jade, it beggars belief that you have any understanding of the scriptures when you seem completely unable to fathom even my simple sentences. You missed the point of my statement entirely. In fact, if 'days' were a lot longer than days as we know them, then it's even more amazing that any being was able to create day and night long before creating the greater light (of the sun) and the lesser light (of the moon) to rule over them respectively.
Of course, the easy (and rather daft) answer is that these words were used in order to convey the wonder of His creation in terms that our uneducated ancestors would find easier to understand. You could have used that answer (it appears to be the stock response, AFAIK), but I imagine that you, like me, see the major flaw in passing off complete misinformation as 'dumbing down'. Telling a curious kid that lights work because there's a photon pump in the bulb is clearly a daft thing to do; if one hasn't the patience or capacity to explain things as they are, why is it better to bullsh*t?
The whole day and night existing before the Sun phenomenon falls way behind the 'centre of the Universe' claim anyway, but it tickles me to raise it all the same. It beats picking on the cud-chewing hares, plants that grew before the creation of the Sun, or four-legged fowls - though these are all mightily amusing to me also.
quote:Days refer to completeness of each task. The writers didn't see God do all those created days and what God accomplished as he was doing it. No one has seen God in his Glory yet that we know. So how can they know. Through the writers revelation God has chosen to give them they relate to us with a way to make the story of creation come down to our way of thinking with their Hebrew words.
Are you insinuating that teh Bible is a story and not an accurate one at that ... I believe the word for that is a "fiction", and that no one has seen your god ? Wow, that's a scoop.
On for probably the most quiet post in my years around this place.
If there is anything divine to life, then why not seek for it inside of yourself and the world around you, rather than in the sky above?
For I think that the first notion of humility a true Christian should belive in lies in the following question : if God is in essence perfect, isn't it sin in and of itself
to try to guess his motives?
quote:Are you insinuating that teh Bible is a story and not an accurate one at that ... I believe the word for that is a "fiction", and that no one has seen your god ? Wow, that's a scoop.
well...yes and then no...
In my bible history class I was enlighted in many things about scripture. The bible is a hand down book from genernations & generations of followers of the God of Moses/Abraham from around 1800 yrs ago. Its like a study guide to make faith richer. There are historical books, psalms, paraables and stories. Christ himself was a great story teller. And a good one at that. Using stories that were not true but told to make a point to his followers to make them understand a message that they could relate to.
And the core of his story telling was always about love, fogiveness and undertanding one another.
Was Jonah really in a whale for three days? Maybe, but I doubt it. More important is what the story points to or signifies in relation to the comming of Christ and his ministry. It is historical? Is the story of the sower who planted seeds on fertile ground true? Did Adam and Eve really bite an apple and what kind of apple? Green or red. Is it important to know what kind of apple it was. Do you see what I mean? If your looking for these kind issues to dispel truths your going about it the wrong way. The truth for Christians is the historical truth of Jesus and his message. This is the problem when persons try to take all of scripture in the literal sense for every verse or passage. This is not what the writers of the bible intended for us. It was never meant to be all of faith implemented and taught anyway. Christ was dead and risen 300 years before scripture was made avaibile to the learned and rich. Christ death did not reedeem us so we could make sure we had the right information in text. He died to save us for life eternal. He came to show us how to live by example and that is the most important part of scripture.
So, assuming it was originally intended for the following purpose :
quote:
And the core of his story telling was always about love, fogiveness and undertanding one another.
(Understanding one another). Don't you think there is more to understand to other by living life according
to whichever means have been given to you? As opposed to living it based on metaphors in a book?
Isn't that an even higher courtesy to pay to the creation?
If there ever was to be such a thing as a "manual to life", I'd be happy, but I find myself MAKING MISTAKES again and again,
and to this day haven't been struck by lightning. Guess what? I don't believe in Jesus as a messiah.
(I believe he existed though, and some other things). Am I a worst person for that?
Was Jonah really in a whale for three days? Maybe, but I doubt it. More important is what the story points to or signifies in relation to the comming of Christ and his ministry. It is historical? Is the story of the sower who planted seeds on fertile ground true? Did Adam and Eve really bite an apple and what kind of apple? Green or red. Is it important to know what kind of apple it was. Do you see what I mean
And on that note - was Jesus really crucified? Did he really come back to life after three days? was he really "god"? Maybe, but I doubt it
Yes, I see what you mean. In fact I've said such things to *you* over and over.
Just be sure to understand that what you say about some parts of the stories apply equally as truthfully to many other parts, including all of the "core" characters and stories...
The gospels in regard to the Birth/Ministry/Death are historical narratives. They are not fiction. We have many eyewitnesses in
different places who refer to the same historical narratives throughout
the new testament. We have many artifacts recovered from those
times. We have the Roman History to also corrobrate what the climate was in those times regarding Roman law and presecutions and how persons were crucified to death. We have historical evidence of persecution of Christians after the ressurection. You can argue that it was religious cult who followed a Holy man who claimed to be the savior because they were blinded by irrational thought, but in the end its all about faith. You cannot reason with faith.
If one wants to pick and choose what they believe is fiction, then its their perrogative. Those who follow Jesues will continue to do so until the end of time as they know it.
(I believe he existed though, and some other things). Am I a worst person for that?
Well what do you think is a worst person?
I don't believe that I can judge what kind of person you are.
Character wise one can assess what kind of man/woman you
reveal, but deep down to the soul only God can know. I can't
say one is right with God and one isn't. It not for anyone to make
that kind of judgement.
Per our scriptures, Jesus tells us, "those who judge will be judge harshly, & those who do not judge, will not be judged by the Lord."
Squeeze me, I think you are contradicting yourself here, let me highlight where
(whatever you think my character expresses - is up to you, we don't know each other really, but I am genuinely debating) :
quote:
I can't
say one is right with God and one isn't. It not for anyone to make
that kind of judgement.
Ok. I understand this and agree.
So why should the bible be right about what I *have* to do to lead a worthy life?
What if it was wrong? The Hebraic Torah, and the Coran ALL offer the same texts or almost (old testament = torah, coran = the bible + 600 more years
of history and parables).
What if there was an alternate way to read the same texts that offers more satisfaction to both your God and the humans
he assumedly conceived?
And what if the best way to respect creation was to enjoy it's diversity
out of the guidelines given by a book - to be able not to rely on a book, but one's own soul and goodness to do the right thing,
and on that alone? What if the bible was, in parts, obsolete?
What if living one's life based on instinct and reason was God's true desire?
Hmmm... Let's see what the basic message in the bible is...
In a nutshell:
- I demand that you live accordingly to my rules alone and bow before my greatness at all times because I'm the ruler.
- As long as you do that I might reward you.
- Should you use your free will and choose not to obey me, I will have you put on fire and torment you forever..."
Or perhaps this:
- I created everything and everyone, I'm infinitely powerful and exist in everything.
- Then I gave you free will and left you to do whatever.
- At some point in time I will collect those that I deem worthy and burn the rest.
To me this principle seems all too human, in fact it would be very very easy to point at well known names throughout history who applied that principle in real life, on real living human beings.
Would I follow a person that applies these principles? Doh, no...
Would I follow a god that applies these principles? Doh, no...
Then, what about all the "other" religions???
I have no hard fact, but surley there must be a lot more humans beliving in something else than the bible?
Should they be doomed to eternal suffering and torment, or should xians be doomed, the majority wins, or???
Hey, what if we start fighting over this, let's just kill a shitload of people in order to decide who has the most powerful or "right" god!!!
Oh, wait, we are already doing this in the name of our gods...
Yup, religion really brought love, peace and understanding to us humans, don't you agree?
It actually seems like humanity is living accordingly to the principles outlined above.
But hey, it probably makes life easier if you can explain everything with "he gave us free will to f*ck up everything we want, but he will forgive us if we believe in him...".
IF there is a god, in any way, shape or form, he/she/it would have abandoned humanity a loooong time ago and chalked us up as a failed social experiment.
And before you say it...
I knew I should have bought the domain www.meetabitterandcynicalperson.com but I'm deeply disturbed that someone can look at the misery we humans create on a daily basis and attribute it to "gods will"!?!?!?
Someone please accept some form of personal responsibility for friggins sake!!!
/Dan
*/ I'm a ginio.....genios......genu......smart person! /*
{cell 260}{Blog}
-{ Sleep: A common physical disorder that manifests itself as the level of blood in the caffeine circulation exeeds 20% }-
Based on your behavior here, for your sake I'd hope that's not true!
IN WHAT WAY HAVE I JUDGED A PERSON ON THIS FORUM...YOU ARE REFERENCING I THINK WHO IS GOOD AND WHO IS BAD...I NEVER DO THAT.
JUDGEMENT ON WHO IS GOING TO HEAVEN AND WHO IS GOING TO HELL IS NOT FOR ANYONE TO DECIDE ON THIS PLANET. SINCE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE GOD OF THE BIBLE AND ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE DEPTH OF HIS TEACHINGS, YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND WHEN SOMEONE SPEAKS OF HIM IN REGARD TO FAITH MATTERSIN SPREADING THE GOSPEL IN SHOWING WHAT IS IS TO BE CHRISTIAN.
You judge all the time. Jesus made it very clear in the stories of him that there is a lot more to judgement than god deciding who goes to heaven and hell, and he made it clear that it is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law that is important.
If you are claiming to be the one who shows by example what it is to be christian, then the religion is in a poor state indeed.
Fortunately for other christians, there are many other examples of positive christianity we can look to.
..not meaning to interrupt, but : Charles Darwin. And Bugimus. Not that you are "bad" to me jade, as I told you already,
but these are people who can accept that faith cannot deal with deeply emotional issues as abortion.
quote:but these are people who can accept that faith cannot deal with deeply emotional issues as abortion.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS FURTHER..??
YOU CAN BE AGAINST ABORITON AND BE CHRISTIAN..OR NOT CHRISTIAN...????OR BECAUSE YOU DON'T DEBATE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES YOUR A BETTER CHRISTIAN????
ITS GOOD TO HAVE ROLE MODEL CHRISITANS TO ASPIRE TO..I AM IN NO WAY A ROLE MODEL CHRISTIAN..THERE ARE MANY CHRISIANS WHO DO NOT TAKE A STAND IN EMOTIONAL ISSUES IN FEAR OF REJECTING, HURTING OR MAKING OTHERS UNEASY WHO LIVE OPPOSED TO THE LIFE THAT A CHRISITAN SHOULD FOLLOW. THEY REMAIN SILENT. THAT IS OK FOR THEM IF THAT IS THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO FOLLOW CHRIST. WHAT I POST IN VIEW OF CHRISTIANITY IS NOT MY CHRISTIAN THOUGHT. ITS THE SAME THEOLOGY FOR MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS. WHAT I POST IS NOTHING NEW. I JUST FEEL THE BODY ITSELF IS A THEOLOGY OF STUDY.. THERE IS MORE THAN JUST FLESH.
Ok, please just chill on the caps lock - it's hurting my mind It's usually associated to screaming in chat and forum.
I feel a body is more than just flesh too, but when dealing with issues as sensitive as abortion,
I do not give a damn wether "killing" is a cardinal sin and what is in the scriptures, or things of that kind -
and remember, in my belief system, "Life" IS what you call God (so my belief system makes me hate the fact of damaging life).
BUT I'd consider the case-by-case basis,
and for example, in a situation extreme (young girl pregnant from a rape), the implications of giving birth to a child,
according to logics, far outweigh the benefits of keeping the child alive - it is very sensitive and nobody is a fair judge,
but it sounds way more "charitable" and Christian to leave it up to the mother wether she should have the kid or not.
Darwin was ok with religion AND a pioneer in science because of that.
Bugiums is a Bible advocate, but he appreciates science and weighs each and every fact against reason too.
Belief in scriptures should never obliterate our will to reason things and make a proper choice that we own
in any given situation.
sorry about the caps...using caps as I don't have my glasses today..I am squinting....
ok...
quote:Belief in scriptures should never obliterate our will to reason things and make a proper choice that we own
in any given situation.
This sounds ok to me..that is why you have a freedom to do what pleases you according to your way of seeing life...You are your own Master of your destiny.
quote:If there ever was to be such a thing as a "manual to life", I'd be happy, but I find myself MAKING MISTAKES again and again,
and to this day haven't been struck by lightning. Guess what? I don't believe in Jesus as a messiah.
Well, to me thats what life is about and we are suppose to learn from our mistakes in general. Right? ....THis is the way of the Cross for Christians...We fall, but we get up and try again and again.. The story of the cross is for us to imitate the walk of Jesus to Calvery to his death to self for love of others.
You pick up your cross, its heavy because life is hard, you struggle, you stumble, you fall, but you get up again and pick up your cross and keep walking and when you get to the end you have to die. Jesus death gives us the way to die to self for love of others. This is the only message he wants us to remember in our hearts. Yes... we are given a book of laws but that is just for reference. The bible is not meant to be all of faith, just a study guide. Could I be a Christian without the bible..Yes. There was no bible for 300 years till after the death of Christ. And the faith was strong, people were killed for their Christian faith. To sum it up: Jesus was our way, an imitation to do good and be good to others by giving your total self in marriage, parenting and friendships. For Christians to be human is to try to imitate the perfect human.
There truly was a man born in Bethalem and his name was Jesus. How he lived and died has affected all of mankind in history to this day and will so till the end of time as we know it.
If I tilt my head just so and squint just the right way, I actually find that last post from Jade to be less than completely nonsensical. Of course, countless people have died for their faith throughout the ages, Christian or otherwise (perhaps, in many cases, at the hands of Christians), and many have had their personal crosses to bear against the persecution and hardships visited upon them by others of a zealous and maniacal bent... but it makes your specific choice of mentor no less valid, I suppose.
Of course, for anyone to strive to be human, perfect or otherwise, is to accept that nobody is perfect, and that nobody should ever claim to be.
(pulls out NLP handbook - and writes down : "People have clearer thoughts and communication when there is room for
positive emotions for them in a communication. A simple hug and active listening can go great ways in making
people express the best of themselves. A good vibe stimulates the mind and soul."
Re-reads one of the core principles of NLP :
"every behavior has a positive intention")
OZONE Asylum
posted 02-19-2008 08:50
