Preserved Topic: Attack Topic V (No Sigs Please) (Page 1 of 2)

Well...that has to be the largest volum of posts we've ever had in one day.

For the previous topic, go here, read it and then continue here.
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum1/HTML/002474.html

http://www.fxracer.com/trade/

from a source with NYTimes.

does anyone have any current news? I know that 2 more building are on fire today, but other than that I don't think there will be much more shock factor on the main theme of this. Now all that remains is to find those faceless cowards and bring them to justice. The FBI and National security are working on bits and pieces of the truth evidence found. Mainly conserning the "Black boxes" from the plane and the various people that called out from the place on cellphones. I want to thank everyone in this forum for comming together and becomming such a plothra of resources and information. I want to thank Shiiizzam reacting on this as quick as she did and I can not express the words needed to ease her pain for her loss.



[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 09-12-2001).]

I dunno if anyone has posted this yet but it's an alternate donation page to help the Red Cross aid in this time of tragedy. It only takes 2 minutes and a credit card. We can all be of some help!

http://www.amazon.com/paypage/PKAXFNQH7EKCX


[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 09-12-2001).]

I haven't seen you around have I Shard? Registered Nov 2000? Welcome back back to the Asylum it hasn't changed much

Please NO sigs, these perticular topic tend alot posts

looks like they're rounding up some folks... http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/america.under.attack/index.html


Jason

I just heard that they are holding someone in a hotel in Copley Square here in Boston... they think he may be the one who set everything up. I was told about armored vehicles and everything. Let's see if they can get him out of the city alive.

There has been a lot of footage of the various crashes these are the most chilling. Change the URL from low to med or high for different connection speeds.

The first impact (the jet isn't as visible as it is on TV):
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/MP/DailyNews/010912wtcfirstplane_video_mp/video_window_low.html

and the second one (wait for the second clip):
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/MP/DailyNews/010911wtc2_video_mp/video_window_low.html

Emps

I have just found this article from hearing about it on the Michael Medved radio program. Please read it, it is very good:
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565.htm

I came to tell Bugimus thanks for the article. It's a nice articulation of what the majority of *Americans* are feeling right now, and the truth as we see it. Then I see milker beat me here with his self serving drivel. I'm just sure that if I walked up to you mickey and pissed up your leg, spat in your face and wiped it off with a left hook, you'd sit up and think twice about what you did to provoke such a thing and try to learn more about how to never piss me off again. Putz.

There are differences of opinion around this place on a daily basis but your self-righteous hypocrisy knows no equal around here. Great to see you back.

Good article Bugs.

Jason

hhmm...well.. uuhmm....hhmm

Amen JKMabry

:: Max ::

Mikey, I made that exact argument on Slashdot, got modded up to 5, but like 20 people ripped me a new asshole.

I think it can be summed up by the old cliche "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

While I disagree with hasty action that could cause more innocent suffering, I have confidence that the government knows A LOT MORE than they're telling us, and I think an American military response to this is expected by anyone involved as well as supported by most of the world.

Your point is not lost on me though. I have lived in a 3rd world country in the past, and I listen to the BBC to get a more global view on the news. It's hard to talk to Americans about how our international policy may have precipitated this, because this is obviously undeserved, but nevertheless, if we care about preventing this type of thing in the future, rather than just revenge, we MUST look at changing our hypocritical foreign policies. With power comes responsibility, and frankly, we have enough world market leverage to stop playing economic hardball with every starving country. Our 500 year old policies of every new leader breaking every previous leader's commitment may be an understandable judgement error when we are fighting to hold our own in the world economy, but today there is simply no excuse for our abysmal global citizenship record.

In fact, I am convinced that another quote is applicable: "the more you tighten your (economic) grip, the more star systems (power) will slip through your fingers". In the information age, our cut-throat, IP-hoarding ways may generate money in the short-term, but cultures that are more open about sharing information will pull ahead in technology as they share and improve much faster than us.

-jiblet

I am going to choose to not debate this topic of conversation at this time. To see this type of words frankly makes me sick.

However, I do want to say that my Aunt has been found alive and well on a flight that was diverted to Canada and she was sent to a shelter there but will be home soon. Thank God. I have 2 friends involved in the actions going on now. One is a fighter pilot that was in the Pentagon when it was hit and my other friend is in the National Guard just outside of New York City and was sent in this morning to search for bodies and recover them. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. This effects all mankind in some way. It's a time we stand united and strong.

Shi, I am so glad to hear that your Aunt's okay. Thanks for letting us know. I've been in a funk whenever I thought about it.

(First Thought)
And as for Mikey, I'm sure if it was -his- obtuse little ass in the rubble of those towers, he wouldn't want us crying over spilt Milker. He'd want us to think long and hard about how to appease the ones who did this so they don't do it again, rather than whomping those responsible.

It wasn't a window that was shattered yesterday, it was the lives of literally thousands of people, most of whom aren't around to hear Mikey's thoughts on where America needs to focus its attention. You'll forgive us our anger.

Funny he mentioned disgust...

(Second Thought)
It isn't your words so much, Mikey, but your sense of timing that stinks...

Hey the FBI supposely found a book in a foreign language on how to fly a plane in one of the cars at the airport. They had traced the car to a hotel in boston a then found the book and the guys were actually still there! They supposly ran untill the FBI caught up with them and then they searched the hotel room to find a briefcase! They brung in the Bomb Dog and he went crazy (How do you train a dog to sniff for a bomb?) and then they brung in the Bomb squad.

I thought this topic was just for the news of this event???

Anyways, Mikey, I do agree with some of the things your expressing and you sound like a reasonabul and preceptive man. I just don't understand why your taking sutch an 'America's Fault' approach in here when it's obvious people are still geving about this. It's still fresh in peoples minds and it's more then just close to home, so ease up a bit on the Us bashing, ok.... Or at least add post them in this topic which seems to be more liberal about the matter.....

Some news you may not be aware of.....

George Robinson, Britains representative and Leader of NATO has called for NATO Article 5 to be invoked....

What this means is that not only America was attacked Yesterday, but the NATO ALLIANCE was attacked, the repercussions of this will be unified reprissals against the perpetrators of yesterdays atrocity. Simplified it says that, an attack on any NATO member is deemed to be an attack on All NATO members and all members are directed to give all support whether financial, security or military to the attacked country.

For those of you unaware of the NATO treaty, here it is....

Nato charter

NATO Basic Texts
Eng./Fr.
The
North Atlantic Treaty
Washington D.C. - 4 April 1949
The Parties to this Treaty reaffirm their faith in the
purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and
their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all
governments.
They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage
and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of
democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law.
They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North
Atlantic area.
They are resolved to unite their efforts for collective
defence and for the preservation of peace and security.
They therefore agree to this North Atlantic Treaty :

Article 1
The Parties undertake, as set forth in the
Charter of the United
Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be
involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international
peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain
in their international relations from the threat or use of force
in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

Article 2
The Parties will contribute toward the further development of
peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening
their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding
of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and
by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will
seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or
all of them.

Article 3
In order more effectively to achieve the objectives of this
Treaty, the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of
continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain
and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist
armed attack.

Article 4
The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any
of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or
security of any of the Parties is threatened

Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of
them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack
against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an
armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of
individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of
the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in
concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems
necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and
maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof
shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such
measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken
the measures necessary to restore and maintain international
peace and security (1).

Article 6
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of
the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America,
on the Algerian Departments of France, (2)
on the territory of

or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in
the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in
or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty
entered into force or theMediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area
north of the Tropic of Cancer.

Article 7
This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as
affecting in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter
of the Parties which are members of the United Nations, or the
primary responsibility of the Security Council for the
maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 8
Each Party declares that none of the international engagements
now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State
is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to
enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.

Article 9
The Parties hereby establish a Council, on which each of them
shall be represented, to consider matters concerning the
implementation of this Treaty. The Council shall be so organised
as to be able to meet promptly at any time. The Council shall set
up such subsidiary bodies as may be necessary; in particular it
shall establish immediately a defence committee which shall
recommend measures for the implementation of Articles 3 and 5.

Article 10
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other
European State in a position to further the principles of this
Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic
area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a
Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession
with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of
the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

Article 11
This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by
the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional
processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as
soon as possible with the Government of the United States of
America, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States
which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the
majority of the signatories, including the ratifications of
Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the United
Kingdom and the United States, have been deposited and shall come
into effect with respect to other States on the date of the
deposit of their ratifications.

Article 12
After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time
thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests,
consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having
regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the
North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as
well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United
Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 13
After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party
may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation
has been given to the Government of the United States of America,
which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the
deposit of each notice of denunciation

Article 14
This Treaty, of which the English and French texts are equally
authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the Government
of the United States of America. Duly certified copies will be
transmitted by that Government to the Governments of other
signatories.
Footnotes :
The definition of the territories to which Article 5 applies was revised by Article 2 of the Protocol to the North
Atlantic Treaty on the accession of Greece and Turkey.

On January 16,1963, the North Atlantic Council heard a
declaration by the French Representative who recalled that by the
vote on self-determination on July 1, 1962, the Algerian people
had pronounced itself in favour of the independence of Algeria in co-operation with France. In consequence, the President of the French Republic had on July 3, 1962, formally recognised the independence of Algeria. The
result was that the "Algerian departments of France" no longer
existed as such, and that at the same time the fact that they
were mentioned in the North Atlantic Treaty had no longer any
bearing. Following this statement the Council noted that insofar
as the former Algerian Departments of France were concerned, the
relevant clauses of this Treaty had become inapplicable as from
July 3, 1962.

souce:- http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm

www.scansped.co.uk


[This message has been edited by Phil (edited 09-13-2001).]

I didn't know that! What time did they attack NATO? I'm glad to see that the united nations is working with us.



[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 09-14-2001).]

NATO is't a place, it's a global pact. By attacking America, they have also attacked NATO, kinda by proxy but they have attacked NATO none the less...

I must admit that I haven't been very emotionally affected by this; a little bit, but not very much - I don't know anyone involved, thank goodness. I mean, I *know* it's very sad, and a horrible thing, but I don't quite *feel* it. I hope no one's offended that I don't feel much... but I just don't for some reason.

Regardless, I have to say (and this following paragraph is an opinion from a naive 17 year old who doesn't really know what war and death *are*) that I think the president may be acting on emotion right now, and not making the best decisions. It seems to me, more or less, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the government is willing to declare war on other countries and kill other civilians of those countries if it means that we can punish the terrorists who planned this. But... isn't killing other (innocent) civilians sort of hypocritical? I think I sort of agree with what Mikey is saying in that we, as a country, are abusing our power, which is what caused people to *want* to do this, and now we're just doing it some more. And we're willing to kill more innocent people in order to avenge the death of *our* innocent people? That's hypocritical.

Of course, I don't think we should let the whole thing slide, 'cause we do have to stop the people who might do this again. But if we declare war or something... I don't know what I'd think, really. We have to stop being so cocky.

"you proved my point exactly, thanks!" ?

I see what you're trying to pull there and I don't think it flies Mr Sensitive. Even though I called you a putz, a term I use to dismiss the silly notions of silly people, I do give you credit for having some brain power, misused and misguided as it is. Those words were chosen semi-carefully, to illustrate my point: Those types of actions are completely uncalled for in a civilized world, as are the actions of these terrorists, comparable to a drunken redneck who wants to fight, on a much grander scale.

I would take a spit in the face, punch in the nose and a heckuva lot more (I like to think) cuz it doesn't really hurt me, not as much as it would to thrash someone, or get my butt kicked even worse in the process. But if I happen to be near when you try to harm my family, slap around a defenseless handicapped person, put the moves on a drunken passed out girl or ram an airplane into a building, I'll do my level best to see that you don't get away with it, to defend the defenseless. That's the way things should be.

This vicious cycle needs to be addressed sure, but I've no clue what you're suggesting? Lie down and have a nap? I'd like to apologize for the putz comment there too, I was a little peeved.

Sorry to take the topic off of the news. back to your regularly schedule program?

Jason

one of the thoughts is that if we bomb/declare war on countries who harbor terrorists, they will no longer harbor terrorists. generally, we don't aim for civilian targets anyway, we simply take out strategic millitary targets. i'm not saying that their is no innocent loss of life, but nothing like intentionally blowing up two buildings with 50,000 people in them.

personally, i'm not sure in how we should act. i think our best bet would be to cancel the funds from the nmd into intelligence. even if we install the nmd, it won't work...it's like trying to shoot a bullet with another bullet (this is a conclusion based on research for debate, not just an opinion). the nmd also fucks relations with china and russia, while not really accomplishing anything, whereas increased intelligence might be able to stop something like this from ever happening again.

i think our current best course of action would be to invest all of our resources in finding the people responsible for this horrible act rather than acting on a national level right away.


....and justice for all.

I have to agree with dracusis on this one. This topic should be for NEWS only. No one wants to sort through all these debates to try and find the updates of news. I f you gotta argue or debate post those here

:: Sheesh ::



[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 09-13-2001).]

Spoilt-Milker,

Canada is to the north and Mexico is to the south. Pack.

I will assume what you have said and the position that you hold will change as you mature a little. Perhaps not, but there is hope.



[This message has been edited by lotiss (edited 09-13-2001).]

I don't understand mikey what you are referring to when you say that we are now reaping what we have sowed?

What could we possibly have done to "deserve" an attack that murdered thousands of innocent people? A few trade embargos here, some propaganda there, and our backing of governments that Taliban is at war with. We have never aimlessly attacked a country with only the intent of wreaking havoc and bringing fear over an entire population.

I'm not saying that the US is a perfect angel here, don't misunderstand me. However, if we don't take a stand against this kind of act right now, the acts will continue, that you can be sure of. War is nothing to take lightly and I definitely do not support some of the "bloodthirsty" statements that have been made. Going to war will never make right what has happened, but it can show all those involved in this terrible act that we will not stand for this type of attack.

It ends here or things will get messy.

That's kinda sad Mikey, but I understand. Your entitled to your own opinion and I not going to hold it against you. I understand that at times things just seem different.

This time people got a little offended about what you said and you opinions may be clashing with some of the other people here but to leave and have you account deleted? It's an emotional time for most people right now and reactions will be rash. Some of the people here may have overacted to your posts due to the current circumstances so I ask you not to do the same. There's over 1400 members here now so your never going to agree with everyone about everything. You should already know how wonderfull this place can be but, do you really want to walk away from this for good?

Edit:

Krets: Things are already messy.

However I'd like to point out a very valid point mikey did make. For someone to even consider doing this they would have to be extreamly angry at the US. Hell, for sutch a thing to happen and for all of those people in the middle east to celebrate has to make you wonder what their day-to-day view of America is like. Their convinced that the US is complete and utter sucm and they ain't worth shit. This kinda hatred doesn't happen overnight, it takes years, years in which actions could have been made to help quell sutch an anger. This doesn't exactly spell out the actions of a peace loving nation.

On the other hand, for anyone to launch a deliberate attack any civilian target and you've taken things 10 steps too far. I don't give a fuck who you are, who's wonged you in the past or where the hell you came from, these actions are an act of war. Major acts of war cudtucted without warning or a viable and just cause against populated civilian targets. Well fuck that! I hope you feel the pain of all that have suffered from your deeds for the rest of eternity.

Edit2:

I forgot the brief but impotrant conclusion for my rant...

No one wins here. We have already lost

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 09-13-2001).]

CBS reports- that the FBI and NSA has linked 14 men with the WTC. They are all of middle-east desent and are currently being questioned with a interpretor. Half of those men where found in a hotel in Boston and the other half were found on information given.



[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 09-13-2001).]

The Empire State Building and Penn Station have now been evacuated due to a bomb stiffing dog reacting to a bomb. They say this is not a hoax

Please read here on that subject.

Mikey Milker,

Your "contribution" speaks volumes of your view of things. I made a screenshot of your original topic from yesterday that someone locked so noone could respond and then eventually it was deleted. I am more than willing to point out some alternative points of view to you BUT I cannot for the life of me understand why you chose to piss on the pain and loss that so many people are experiencing right now. It was extremely selfish of you and couldn't have been more poorly timed. If your "goodbye" post can be interpretted in any way as an apology then perhaps there is hope.

Anytime you want to take this up in the philosophy forum, I am more than eager to explain to you why what you say is so flawed as to make responses to it almost futile.

I hope you don't leave us. Most of us around here can handle disagreement. Here's a thought, why not stay and choose not to be so negative? Did that ever even occur to you? You speak of "giving people sh*t and making things difficult" and that your time off did nothing to change that. I've got news for you, you don't *have* to do that. Stay and grow like the rest of us try to do.

I've just heard that the FBI has identified nearly 50 attackers. Some of them took piloting classes here in the US.

I should have been here in this forum earlier but I was busy with lots of assignments.. this is the fastest growing thread in the asylum.

I've seen the attack on CNN, been following the stories. God, this is truly out of this world. No futner comment for now..

I dont know if or how many of you received this email, I thought i would post it here for everyone
to see. I too am not sure when this was broadcast, but I think it fits in here perfectly now.

A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!



[This message has been edited by Nell (edited 09-13-2001).]

2 trains have collided with 300 passengers onboard...a freight train and a AMTrack train in Utah


I feel the need to go focus on something good in all of this madness

this shit makes me wanna cry, it makes me fucking angry as well, at both sides not just the terrorists, but at USA as well. i understand where mikey is coming from and how he feels, hell i've felt that way before...

my love to all of you .....

They just played someones pager recording where a man believed to be one of the lost rescue workers was saying "We are alive....we're alive" So they are trying to locate them at this time. They are trying to track down the phone number to see who left that message. They do however feel it is a rescue worker that was under the WTC when it went down. So there is hope

Well, in some sad way. i agree with mikey milker and i'm so sorry that people don't understand that point of view, shit happen and we have to accept it sometimes...

And mikey milker, you're and ass, but if Dark hasn't go, why you have to? just read what Bugimus just said...

mikey miker, glad to see you go.

PLEASE take this type of talk to email. This is not the time nor place for it

I could write a hundred and one things right now in defense of Mikey Milker.
I don't have time and most people here wouldn't listen anyway.
Good luck, Mikey Milker, and peace.
I know how you feel.

I know how angry you are...not at any terrorists, but at the arrogance and hatred in Americans themselves. I am angry too. I hear people in my office call their co-workers 'camel-fucking towel heads' and 'sand-niggers' when last week they ate lunch together. I hear people screaming for the blood of all countries that support terrorism...without realizing they would be the first to go.

I know how scared you are...not of the violence that any 'terrorist' is going to do to you, but of the right everywhere. Already Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw (the new Ministers of Information) are saying that Americans are going to have to 'rethink some of our civil rights.' That scares me. FDR said, "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself." Most people don't fully understand what that means. I have a feeling you do. Good. Don't forget it.

I know the sorrow you feel for everybody who has and will be wounded or killed because of decisions made by other people. Mostly those people are the workers of the society, dying for the decisions of their 'leaders'. American or Afghan or Christian or Muslim or anything else...they are all people, and those people have been, and will be, killed because of the decisions of their leaders. There is nothing more dangerous than idle nationalism and misguided patriotism.

I know the frustration and hopelessness that invades your thoughts on most days. Tonight, or whenever, when the cruise missle blasts light up your television screen on prime time, 'everybody else' will be cheering. I will be thinking about the janitor in the building that just got hit. How he is dying. I will be thinking that, in a lot of ways, he is just like me. He's a guy who is trying to feed his family. I will also feel frustrated that the cycle of violence will continue, and there is nothing that I or he could do about it. Instead of trying to understand each other, the US will again try to prove that might equals right. I have a feeling, Mikey, that you will feel the same way.

Good luck, and peace.

mobrul