Preserved Topic: Attack Topic V (No Sigs Please) (Page 2 of 2)

worth reading

So, Mobrul Welcome to the club. Three people here feel the same way now......

I know parts of this have been posted, but this a longer version...

Nostradamus said:

"In the year of the new century and nine months,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror...
The sky will burn at forty-five degrees.
Fire approaches the great new city..."
"In the city of york there will be a great collapse,
2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos
while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb
third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

[This message has been edited by CryoniX (edited 09-13-2001).]

I won't pretend to defend nor attack anyone here. I will tell a few of my positions on these events, and leave it at that.

Whoever attacked the US did so because they were fighting for their beliefs. That's the way these things start. We decried it. And now we want to do the same thing.

How many more thousands must die because we believe our beliefs, our "freedoms," are more important or superior to anothers?

That will never stop, Twitch, is our nature...

(please do not delete this)

Ya know these posts about Nostradamus are really odd. I'm beginning to believe that they are similar to the "Village Idiot" Nostradamus hoax.
Can anyone tell me the exact century and stanza that these quotes come from? I've been digging through both translations I have of Nostradamus's predictions, and I cannot find these quotes anywhere.
Of course I'm not very familiar with them, as I recieved both as gifts, and have never actually read them.

The Mayor of N.Y. reports that 4,700+ people have been reported missing or are unaccounted for.

Including: Occupants/Employees of the Towers, Rescue workers, Police and Fire, and all people on the 2 Air Liners that hit the Towers.

Horrible, just Horrible.

quote:

---

(CNN) -- New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Thursday that the list of people missing in the terrorist destruction of the World Trade Center towers had grown to 4,763. The mayor said that 94 bodies had been recovered, 46 of them identified

---

[This message has been edited by Xcessive Force (edited 09-13-2001).]

updates

My wife is an EMT is Salt Lake City and was suposed to come off shift at 7:30 AM this morning. She has been held over in the City to keep the support levels up there to cmpensate for those that had to rush the the Train wreck. They have flow at least 3 people to LDS and University Hospitals and transported severals others via ground but most are minor or no injuries they are bussing at leat 150 people to SLC just because it is the closest big city. My wife is of the opinion that My family should leave for the Olympics. I live in Tooel very close to the chemical weapons disposal plant.

Hey F1!

Read about it here

That quote is said to be written by Nostradamus almost a 100 years after he died. Whatta guy!

We fight a Holy War and a Faith that is thousands of years old. We do not fight a people, just a faith. The west is evil in the eyes of radical Muslims and will always be evil without compromise. The western powers will have to make a choice. Live with this problem forever or remove it from this and future generations.

The true Muslim faith is a peaceful faith, its only radical individual interpretation of their faith that needs changing not the true Faith. The Jews as well as Western Christianity also have radicals that are polluting the true faiths. Hold on to your seat , no matter where you live it will be in the front row.
The world is about to change how we look at radical faiths. Radical Muslims, Jews and Christians will be under the microscope
This is just my opinion. Thanks for reading
Keeter

Keeter

Happy Trails

They have just pulled 5 firefighters alive in a SUV under the WTC

Yesssssssssssss

I want to ask a question of mikey, twitch, mobrul, and anyone else who might support the viewpoint that they do.

What should we do?

If war is not the answer, how do we prevent this from happening again? Nothing changes the things the US has done in the past and I don't support many of them. Do you actually think that we deserved that? Should we just let it go? I'm not saying that we need to wipe certain ethnic groups or countries off the face of the planet, I don't support that at all, but we must do something to defend ourselves against this immediately. If this goes unpunished it will be like the dog that doesn't get swatted when it bites. It will bite again.

So what would you do? Granted, we need to look at our foreign policy and what we could have done to prevent this kind of anger and hatred towards us. There are many areas that we need to take a hard look at. But how do we deal with those responsible?

Please share your thoughts on what should be done. Not for revenge, but to punish those responsible and show them that this cannot go without penalty.

Cut-n-Paste from the CNN website:

"Nine Australians have been confirmed dead, with a further 85 missing."

15 min's ago on the news they were only saying that 3 Australians have been confirmed dead??? How odd.

"Chinese President Jiang Zemin sent a message to Bush expressing sympathy over the deadly attacks."

I was wondering what China was thinking about all of this, seing their one of the strongest military powers in the world right about now... This is good.

It appears that almost every country around the world flocked to support America. It's not supprising given the complete un-militristic and inhumane nature of these events. Some good may come of this yet. Russia is now expressing intrest in Joining NATO, and I'd expect many more to do the same in the near future.

The world did change overnight, and I think it's brought us closer togther. It's sad that it only happen in times of dire need but it happens none the less. There's Iorny here too. These terrorist actions were conducted on American soil but they were to some degree attacks anainst certain ideals and ways of life. These American Ideals are shared globaly, therefore these attacks have been viewed as attacks against world on a whole. Now we've got 95% of the entire planets military forces at our disposal in order to claim our Justice. It actualy quite similar to your classic fairy-tail war story. The world fudes amunst each other untill such an event that exposes a greater threat, a threat not just to them selves but to all. The world then unites to battle this new evil.

That may sound a little far fetched and stupidly patriotic but you still can't deny the fact that it's just happened.

Drac.

Yeah, I like the fact that the vast majority of international responses have been not political reactions, but -human- reactions.

It's sad that it takes something like this to unite the world, but it's still nice to see.

Whatever form this 'Justice' comes in only concerns me if it will affect innocent life. Now, the hard question is, who is innocent and who is guilty? Should you kill every single member on this terrorist organisation? What if their so big that some people actualy get born into it. If you are raised with certain ideas and relegious beliefs then you know no better. Does this deem your acts innocent or guilty? What if someone's only mildly involved? What if you were involved but you didn't know exactly what they were planning. Then you see the news and think, fuck this, I'm outa here! I don't want any part of this. Then you get caugth, should you die?

Are we going to question each and every person's involvnemt in this organisation and them issue them a worth punishment.

No, I don't think so.

It's impossible to draw that line. Just impossible. Innocent and good natured people will still die in the cause for justice. The question of war has already been answered, the war started a long time ago, and it's not over yet.

I'm not saying that we should do nothing. We must act, but when we do, we will shed blood, in the name of justice or outright revenge it matters not. Innocent blood will be spilt again.



Ok, I think I'll go and be depressed somewhere else for a while....

this is a very weird picture, take a look at it...
http://www.netgen.de/wtc/wtfisthat.jpg

[This message has been edited by CryoniX (edited 09-13-2001).]

CryoniX: Now thats just spooky. I had to look at that again. But come on if you look up into the clouds you see images anyway (Remember when your where little and you would see things in the sky, and not flyin sources). but let me see it again

My Aunt works in the Pentagon. Her office was destroyed. It was being renovated. She was in another wing.

That was just too close.

Through all this terror, I have one comment on things... to try and return to my myth/philosophy-oriented bent on this forum...

I am quite disgusted by the Nostradamus quotes. Also, academically, it is interesting to see myth, hero, and legend begin to develop from this tragic epic. But Nostradums doesn't deserve to be part of that. I realize there are enough fools in the world to support numerous psychic hotlines and even TV shows about communig with the dead, but I have just been so afraid to face that side of humanity coming to participate in these events.

You see, although so many people around us are already suffering from "Chicken Little" syndrome, for once, it seems time to take an opportunity to embrace exactly the opposite mentality. Instead of fearing the world will end tomorrow, instead imagine (as many are) a more united world, a more confident and stolid world, capapble of not only surviving the occasional insurgent demons, but in fact strengthening in the face of them.

Certainly, the debate over our policies and our future civil rights will be fierce, but I think this kind of subject is separate from the collective human psyche that is at a crossroads. And may we all push and heave towards the road of Hope and Strength instead of Fear and Weakness.

- Ben

krets: You ask what should be done. I think that a restrained and well thought out response would go a long way to restoring some of the respect that the US has lost in some quarters due to its foreign policies.

If it is bin Ladin then I'd like to see the Taliban hand him over to an international court or at the least to turn a blind eye while a special forces snatch squad retrieves him. We are moving to a place where perpetrators of such crimes can no longer get away with these things. All that flattening Kabul would do is increase anger and resentment against the US (which will lead to further and more extreme attacks in the future) and probably let the real criminals off the hook.

You don't need war to have justice.

Just my opinion,

Emps

"I like long posts, that's why i admire Emperor Posts!!" (Wakkos)

Worthy of note:

1. There will be a Europe-wide 3 minutes of silence at 11am on Friday.

2. The British Parliament is being recalled on Friday - some intelligence analysts think that there may be significance to this as this is done very rarely - in recent years this has happened after the Omagh bombing (which was one of the major events which has led to the, rather unstable, peace in Northern Ireland), and for the onset of the Falklands and Gulf Wars. So it might be something worth keeping an eye on.

Emps

"I like long posts, that's why i admire Emperor Posts!!" (Wakkos)

Fair question, Krets. I won't answer for Mikey or Twitch or anybody else, but...
If the supreme court would have declared me President last Nov., I would do a few things, simultaneously.

1)Conduct an investigation into who is responsible, ask for international help, and demand that person/those people be brought to the World Court to stand trial for war crimes, murder, whatever. I'm no lawyer so I can't go into specific charges, but the World Court was set up for this sort of thing, we have signed treaties, we should abide by those.

2)Announce that the US will not be a supporter of terrorism. That goes for friends and foes.

3)Stop our $6 billion/yr support of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians. Israel doesn't get one more cent from us until they comply with the 200+ UN decisions saying that Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory is illegal. This includes, but is not limited to, UN resolutions 194 and 242. Not one cent, not one helocopter, rocket, tank, rifle or bullet.

4)Stop our support of non-democratic, monarchical governments in Jordon, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, etc. We talk and talk and talk of democracy, yet when the king of Jordon dies and passes on the throne to his son, C l i n t o n was right there praising him at the funeral. This isn't the only example...

5)Stop our support of the war in Columbia. The UN, Amnesty International, and the Catholic Church have all called Columbia the country with 'the worst human rights record, in the world.' And the US is, by far, the largest contributor to their military. Often the argument is raised that we are stopping drugs from reaching the US. Time and time again financial and economic analysts all over the world have said that the only reason there is so much cocaine grown there is because US trade 'agreements' make it IMPOSSIBLE for a farmer to make a living raising any other crop. Wheat, corn, beans, etc. are not economically productive crops in Columbia because we force them to sell to us at such a low price. Given a choice between starvation and growing/selling drugs, I think that most everybody here would choose the later. Given a real choice between legal or illegal work, I think that most everybody in the world would choose the former.

6)Stop our support of Turkey in their terroristic war against the Kurds. Again, most every other nation in the world has condemned this action, yet we still support it. In Turkey the army/police often kill Kurds because they speak a different language. No wonder they are pissed and want a country of their own. And America supports the Turkish government with money, tanks, helicopters, rockets and rifles.

7)Stop our embargo on Iraq. I don't want to minimize the very real threat that exists, but the embargo has succeded in killing at least 700,000 innocent Iraqi people while having zero effect on the government in power.

8)Stop all other support of terrorist and oppressive activities in the world, and activily speak out and act out against them.

9)Pay our UN dues, abide by the agreements we've signed, and sign a few of those agreements that we haven't: The convention on the rights of the child (this one is a no-brainer--only non-signers in the world:US and Somalia, and we refuse), prohibition against anti-personnel land mines, etc. And make an honest effort to be part of the world COMMUNITY, not the world TYRANT.

9)Promise, and stick to it, that absolutely no civil liberties in the US will be 'revisited'.

There it is. If I were president of the United States, that is what I would do. That is the only way that the US can help stop the cycle of violence. That is the only way that the US can really come out of this horrible tragedy with its head held high.
Not master or slave.
Some say that this is 'impossible'.
In my mind, 'impossible' simply means that the people in power don't want it.

mobrul

You see? there are solutions without killing more people or going to a war, or invade a country.

In fact, Krets, War can show all those involved in this terrible act that we will not stand for this type of attack, but it will be just another biggert World Trade Center. 'you kill americans, americans kill people' that's not a smart way out. methink

I would have to immediately agree with everything that mobrul said in that (rather lengthy) post. It's well thought-out, logical, and not emotionally-driven, unlike 99% of America right now.

How do you stop robbery? If your house had been robbed ("invaded?"), then you beef up security. If it happens again, you beef up more. You simply do not go and murder all humans that could've perpetuated that act. You do not seek out the robber and rob him/her. If it ended up being a black man that robbed you last time (there were witnesses), you do not start up a war against black people.

You increase your own security. You put in an alarm. You change your windows to plastic windows. You move. You do any number of things that do not equate what the US wants to do to everyone with light brown skin and black hair. You do not start a war. You do not kill innocent people.

My sister died of leukemia last year. I did not go out and kill every doctor I could find, did I?

Some money fell out of my pocked several weeks ago. I did not go out and kill all jeans manufacturers, did I?

The point is that violence is simply not the answer in most cases. We were hit, and we were hit hard. 10,000 people may be dead. The proper response to this is not to go kill 20,000 in retaliation, most of whom would be innocent - just like those in the WTC and Pentagon buildings. It doesn't make sense now, and it won't make sense later.

The answer is in foreign policy. The answer is to stop inviting this sort of activity.

Kretsminky: You asked, "What should we do about this?" It seems to me that it is time for all of us (the entire world to start acting as if we are all part of the same world. It should not be the responsibility of the United States to respond to the terrorist action that occurred in New York, but the entire world should stand up (and is standing up) to say, "We will not tolerate this kind of behavior." If we are to go to war as a response to this action, it must be a decision of the entire world to go to war against the perpetrators. It is time for the United States to stop taking the attitude that we will help out only if someone can show us that it is our national interest. The peace of the world is in everyone's national interest and we must all work together toward that end.

We saw a beginning of this kind of cooperation when most countries around the world stood up against Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. I think we are seeing even more support of the United States by the countries of the world today, and we need to continue to work on developing an "Us and Us" attitude, as opposed to "Us and Them".

This crisis is an opportunity for us all to work on getting along and supporting each other, rather than trying to point out how different we are from each other and how anyone who is or thinks differently must be wrong.

Remember: Our differences make us strong.

I think I agree with twItch^ and mobrul on this one. Especially on the Israel/Palestinian front.

And suppose it is Bin Laden behind this and the US/UN do go after him directly and not using diplomacy as their primary weapon and succeed in killing him (and probably a few of his group as well as bystanders)

Then what will happen?

I'll tell you: He'll gain martyr status!
Not a situation I'd like to see...

Mobrul, Mikey, Twitch and Hiperbole, the club is growing!!!
you guys make me so happy!!!!! Edit: And Nimraw!

I really agree with twItch^, as i said before, shit happens, we have to accept it sometimes. The world is like it is, and America is inside the world, that means that not only the good things come to America, but the bads thing too!
And all that is part of the world, what are we going to do? go and set up a war with anycountry that we don't like?
We all have lost beautiful things, for one or another reason, but that doesn't justify respond actions with more violence. twItch^ is right: increase security. If my neighbourg is a fucking damm crazy, i just close my windows and door at night, i know he's crazy, What can i do??? a lot, but, should I?

[This message has been edited by Wakkos (edited 09-13-2001).]

Twitch - "You do any number of things that do not equate what the US wants to do to everyone with light brown skin and black hair. You do not start a war. You do not kill innocent people."

Isn't that a generalization on the same level you accuse the US of making? I'd like to see your source for concluding that EVERYONE in the United States wants to kill EVERYONE with light brown skin and black hair.

I saw the footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets, celebrating the attack. Yet, I understand that that represents a minority of Palestinian opinion, and that most Palestinians are pretty much like me, just somewhere else.

Yes, we can make corrections in foreign policy where it's needed, but that doesn't mean we can't track down those responsible and see them punished.

(Personally, I hope that all the grieving nations of the world have an opportunity to take part in this effort, whether it be in hunting and capturing the terrorists, trying them in the World Court, whatever. Particularly, I'd like to see Middle Eastern countries take part, just to show those responsible that NO ONE, not even those they may consider 'their own', will support them in these kinds of actions, and that such an attack harms everyone the world over.)

And don't judge the American government for what -you- think they -might- do; that's as bad as assuming without proof that bin Ladin, or Afghanistan, or Iraq is behind the attack in the first place.

Don't hate a Nation for the fanaticism of a few.

I understand what you are all trying to say, and let me make it clear that I do not think we should just go out and carpet-bomb the middle east. However, if your house gets robbed thousands of innocent people did not die. Your belongings can be replaced. Your sister died of a disease, the doctors didn't kill her, that argument doesn't make any sense. I've lost several members of my family to cancer and heart disease, I don't understand the analogy on that one.

Make no mistake, this is an act of war. This was a carefully planned and carried out operation the likes of which we have never seen before. This took more than the resources of one person. Some of these people, called "sleepers", had been in the US for several years just waiting for their call. This is not just a matter of a car bomb, this took backing. We need to find out who was backing these people and eliminate them.

Throw the guy in jail? Come on guys, you know exactly what that will result in. More hostage situations, more hijackings, and more death all in the name of freeing these people. This wouldn't just happen in the US either, it would be global.

What I am saying is not that we should go after an entire country. We need to go after those responsible when we find out who they are. Not just to throw them in jail but to completely and permanently cripple the resources that have allowed them to create such widespread panic. We need to make it known that this kind of act is not without consequence.

If we don't, we might as well start digging bunkers and lining them with supplies.

The problem is that the people on the earth have different religion, and as long as they do there will always be a war. I say that religion is the problem

Sorry if my English is bad

I hear you Krets!

I just think it's important to emphasize that for such an action to fully work out as intended you need cooperation of the countries/cultures that is close to the perpetrators.

For arguments sake say it's Bin Laden who's the mastermind behind this tragedy.

Scenario #1
We (US/The western world/whatever) just go in there and take him out, there will be chaos and retaliation from people who sympathize with his cause.

Scenario #2
We take him out and also punish the Afghanistan population/regime for harbouring him, the effect will be the same.

Scenario #3
If the Talibans can be persuaded to drop him off at our doorstep, and we acknowledge that act, the message to his followers will be that their once safe haven does not accept terrorism anymore, thus making it harder for them to operate. Even if we just send him to jail until the next millenium, the very way of how he was apprehended will probably lessen the risk of futher terrorist attacks.


We must remember that the people behind this is poor (in comparison to a country) and has little means of fighting back in a warlike or even civilized manner, and that's what bothering me with the use of the term "war" in the presidents statements. As long as it's used as in "war on crime", or "war on cancer" I accept it, but if "war" actually means war than I'm worried. That kind is hard to fight against a foe with no territory. You have no land to conquer and you have no idea as to where his resources are kept.

I think you get the general idea of my post. I just think that diplomacy is the sharpest weapon available.
It'll probably take longer to use, but the possible benefits are much greater.
Since I'm not by far a diplomat nor a military strategist it's all in my theoretical humble opinion of course.

-nimraw

[This message has been edited by Nimraw (edited 09-13-2001).]

"And don't judge the American government for what -you- think they -might- do; that's as bad as assuming without proof that bin Ladin, or Afghanistan, or Iraq is behind the attack in the first place."

I'll judge the american government for what it has done then:

We have created a worldwide hatred of America, and Americans. We have sponsored terrorism across the globe. We have used our economic power to crush those who oppose the American Way of Life(tm). We have wasted trillions of dollars on bigger, faster, more deadly weapons. We have overstepped our bounds, and openly defiled our Constitution.

We have been waging wars on others for many years now. Only once before have these wars reached our soil, and for that transgression we nuked the offendor twice, and occupied their homeland for many years. Now we finally have really felt the reprocussions of our actions. I want to cry out, to extend my sorrow, I want to cry for justice, but I cannot. This has been long over due.

We are the cowardly, we are the heartless, we have brought this upon ourselves, and even now, we refuse to accept that we are at least partly responsible.

Time to grow up and stop acting like the 300 pound 12 year old we are.

I do not support bloodshed. Nor do I think we are anything but mortals.

We have lived by the sword, and now we are dying by the sword.

/me expects to be hated by 99% of you now, and that is exactly my point. We refuse to even give the most cursory examination of others, instead we simply write them off as radicals, or cowards, and claim they are inhumane when they believe different things.

And I hope your mother dies of cancer for the time that she cursed at that driver who cut her off in traffic.

I just summed up your entire post in one fucking sentence.

Ah, your post is perfect example of the level of intelligent responses I expected to get.

First off, its not nice to talk about my mother, that was fairly rude to wish such things upon her, as she is a very nice person, and does have cancer, and has probably never cursed a truck driver in her life. Besides, the more appropriate analogy would have been for my mother to die because of the actions of not herself, but someone she supported.

Second of all, my mother cursing someone for cutting her off is a far cry from our irresponsible military actions which have resulted in many "innocents" deaths.

Oh well, go back to your little cave where everything america does is peachy-keen and that everyone else in the world will absolutly love us forever.

Those still struggling to understand why the US is so disliked globally might want to read this - its called "They can't see why they are hated" and is from one of the UK newspapers:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html

Emps

"I like long posts, that's why i admire Emperor Posts!!" (Wakkos)

In response to that article I post this by a canadian author. Originally printed in 1973 ut us still valid


America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator.
What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in
the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of
dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is
today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United
States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans
who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on
the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened
by tornadoes.

Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars
into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the Decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet,
the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines
except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman
on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.

You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk
about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but
several times -and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the
store window for everybody to look at .

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on
our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws,
are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania
Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help
even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing
with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their
nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."




:[ Computers let you make more mistakes faster than any other invention in human history, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. ]: