Preserved Topic: Attack Topic V (No Sigs Please)

Well...that has to be the largest volum of posts we've ever had in one day.

For the previous topic, go here, read it and then continue here.
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum1/HTML/002474.html

http://www.fxracer.com/trade/

from a source with NYTimes.

does anyone have any current news? I know that 2 more building are on fire today, but other than that I don't think there will be much more shock factor on the main theme of this. Now all that remains is to find those faceless cowards and bring them to justice. The FBI and National security are working on bits and pieces of the truth evidence found. Mainly conserning the "Black boxes" from the plane and the various people that called out from the place on cellphones. I want to thank everyone in this forum for comming together and becomming such a plothra of resources and information. I want to thank Shiiizzam reacting on this as quick as she did and I can not express the words needed to ease her pain for her loss.



[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 09-12-2001).]

I dunno if anyone has posted this yet but it's an alternate donation page to help the Red Cross aid in this time of tragedy. It only takes 2 minutes and a credit card. We can all be of some help!

http://www.amazon.com/paypage/PKAXFNQH7EKCX


[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 09-12-2001).]

I haven't seen you around have I Shard? Registered Nov 2000? Welcome back back to the Asylum it hasn't changed much

Please NO sigs, these perticular topic tend alot posts

looks like they're rounding up some folks... http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/america.under.attack/index.html


Jason

I just heard that they are holding someone in a hotel in Copley Square here in Boston... they think he may be the one who set everything up. I was told about armored vehicles and everything. Let's see if they can get him out of the city alive.

There has been a lot of footage of the various crashes these are the most chilling. Change the URL from low to med or high for different connection speeds.

The first impact (the jet isn't as visible as it is on TV):
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/MP/DailyNews/010912wtcfirstplane_video_mp/video_window_low.html

and the second one (wait for the second clip):
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/MP/DailyNews/010911wtc2_video_mp/video_window_low.html

Emps

I have just found this article from hearing about it on the Michael Medved radio program. Please read it, it is very good:
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565.htm

I came to tell Bugimus thanks for the article. It's a nice articulation of what the majority of *Americans* are feeling right now, and the truth as we see it. Then I see milker beat me here with his self serving drivel. I'm just sure that if I walked up to you mickey and pissed up your leg, spat in your face and wiped it off with a left hook, you'd sit up and think twice about what you did to provoke such a thing and try to learn more about how to never piss me off again. Putz.

There are differences of opinion around this place on a daily basis but your self-righteous hypocrisy knows no equal around here. Great to see you back.

Good article Bugs.

Jason

hhmm...well.. uuhmm....hhmm

Amen JKMabry

:: Max ::

Mikey, I made that exact argument on Slashdot, got modded up to 5, but like 20 people ripped me a new asshole.

I think it can be summed up by the old cliche "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

While I disagree with hasty action that could cause more innocent suffering, I have confidence that the government knows A LOT MORE than they're telling us, and I think an American military response to this is expected by anyone involved as well as supported by most of the world.

Your point is not lost on me though. I have lived in a 3rd world country in the past, and I listen to the BBC to get a more global view on the news. It's hard to talk to Americans about how our international policy may have precipitated this, because this is obviously undeserved, but nevertheless, if we care about preventing this type of thing in the future, rather than just revenge, we MUST look at changing our hypocritical foreign policies. With power comes responsibility, and frankly, we have enough world market leverage to stop playing economic hardball with every starving country. Our 500 year old policies of every new leader breaking every previous leader's commitment may be an understandable judgement error when we are fighting to hold our own in the world economy, but today there is simply no excuse for our abysmal global citizenship record.

In fact, I am convinced that another quote is applicable: "the more you tighten your (economic) grip, the more star systems (power) will slip through your fingers". In the information age, our cut-throat, IP-hoarding ways may generate money in the short-term, but cultures that are more open about sharing information will pull ahead in technology as they share and improve much faster than us.

-jiblet

I am going to choose to not debate this topic of conversation at this time. To see this type of words frankly makes me sick.

However, I do want to say that my Aunt has been found alive and well on a flight that was diverted to Canada and she was sent to a shelter there but will be home soon. Thank God. I have 2 friends involved in the actions going on now. One is a fighter pilot that was in the Pentagon when it was hit and my other friend is in the National Guard just outside of New York City and was sent in this morning to search for bodies and recover them. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. This effects all mankind in some way. It's a time we stand united and strong.

Shi, I am so glad to hear that your Aunt's okay. Thanks for letting us know. I've been in a funk whenever I thought about it.

(First Thought)
And as for Mikey, I'm sure if it was -his- obtuse little ass in the rubble of those towers, he wouldn't want us crying over spilt Milker. He'd want us to think long and hard about how to appease the ones who did this so they don't do it again, rather than whomping those responsible.

It wasn't a window that was shattered yesterday, it was the lives of literally thousands of people, most of whom aren't around to hear Mikey's thoughts on where America needs to focus its attention. You'll forgive us our anger.

Funny he mentioned disgust...

(Second Thought)
It isn't your words so much, Mikey, but your sense of timing that stinks...

Hey the FBI supposely found a book in a foreign language on how to fly a plane in one of the cars at the airport. They had traced the car to a hotel in boston a then found the book and the guys were actually still there! They supposly ran untill the FBI caught up with them and then they searched the hotel room to find a briefcase! They brung in the Bomb Dog and he went crazy (How do you train a dog to sniff for a bomb?) and then they brung in the Bomb squad.

I thought this topic was just for the news of this event???

Anyways, Mikey, I do agree with some of the things your expressing and you sound like a reasonabul and preceptive man. I just don't understand why your taking sutch an 'America's Fault' approach in here when it's obvious people are still geving about this. It's still fresh in peoples minds and it's more then just close to home, so ease up a bit on the Us bashing, ok.... Or at least add post them in this topic which seems to be more liberal about the matter.....

Some news you may not be aware of.....

George Robinson, Britains representative and Leader of NATO has called for NATO Article 5 to be invoked....

What this means is that not only America was attacked Yesterday, but the NATO ALLIANCE was attacked, the repercussions of this will be unified reprissals against the perpetrators of yesterdays atrocity. Simplified it says that, an attack on any NATO member is deemed to be an attack on All NATO members and all members are directed to give all support whether financial, security or military to the attacked country.

For those of you unaware of the NATO treaty, here it is....

Nato charter

NATO Basic Texts
Eng./Fr.
The
North Atlantic Treaty
Washington D.C. - 4 April 1949
The Parties to this Treaty reaffirm their faith in the
purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and
their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all
governments.
They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage
and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of
democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law.
They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North
Atlantic area.
They are resolved to unite their efforts for collective
defence and for the preservation of peace and security.
They therefore agree to this North Atlantic Treaty :

Article 1
The Parties undertake, as set forth in the
Charter of the United
Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be
involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international
peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain
in their international relations from the threat or use of force
in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

Article 2
The Parties will contribute toward the further development of
peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening
their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding
of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and
by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will
seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or
all of them.

Article 3
In order more effectively to achieve the objectives of this
Treaty, the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of
continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain
and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist
armed attack.

Article 4
The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any
of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or
security of any of the Parties is threatened

Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of
them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack
against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an
armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of
individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of
the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in
concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems
necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and
maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof
shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such
measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken
the measures necessary to restore and maintain international
peace and security (1).

Article 6
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of
the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America,
on the Algerian Departments of France, (2)
on the territory of

or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in
the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in
or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty
entered into force or theMediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area
north of the Tropic of Cancer.

Article 7
This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as
affecting in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter
of the Parties which are members of the United Nations, or the
primary responsibility of the Security Council for the
maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 8
Each Party declares that none of the international engagements
now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State
is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to
enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.

Article 9
The Parties hereby establish a Council, on which each of them
shall be represented, to consider matters concerning the
implementation of this Treaty. The Council shall be so organised
as to be able to meet promptly at any time. The Council shall set
up such subsidiary bodies as may be necessary; in particular it
shall establish immediately a defence committee which shall
recommend measures for the implementation of Articles 3 and 5.

Article 10
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other
European State in a position to further the principles of this
Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic
area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a
Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession
with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of
the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

Article 11
This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by
the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional
processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as
soon as possible with the Government of the United States of
America, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States
which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the
majority of the signatories, including the ratifications of
Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the United
Kingdom and the United States, have been deposited and shall come
into effect with respect to other States on the date of the
deposit of their ratifications.

Article 12
After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time
thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests,
consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having
regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the
North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as
well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United
Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 13
After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party
may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation
has been given to the Government of the United States of America,
which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the
deposit of each notice of denunciation

Article 14
This Treaty, of which the English and French texts are equally
authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the Government
of the United States of America. Duly certified copies will be
transmitted by that Government to the Governments of other
signatories.
Footnotes :
The definition of the territories to which Article 5 applies was revised by Article 2 of the Protocol to the North
Atlantic Treaty on the accession of Greece and Turkey.

On January 16,1963, the North Atlantic Council heard a
declaration by the French Representative who recalled that by the
vote on self-determination on July 1, 1962, the Algerian people
had pronounced itself in favour of the independence of Algeria in co-operation with France. In consequence, the President of the French Republic had on July 3, 1962, formally recognised the independence of Algeria. The
result was that the "Algerian departments of France" no longer
existed as such, and that at the same time the fact that they
were mentioned in the North Atlantic Treaty had no longer any
bearing. Following this statement the Council noted that insofar
as the former Algerian Departments of France were concerned, the
relevant clauses of this Treaty had become inapplicable as from
July 3, 1962.

souce:- http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm

www.scansped.co.uk


[This message has been edited by Phil (edited 09-13-2001).]

I didn't know that! What time did they attack NATO? I'm glad to see that the united nations is working with us.



[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 09-14-2001).]

NATO is't a place, it's a global pact. By attacking America, they have also attacked NATO, kinda by proxy but they have attacked NATO none the less...

I must admit that I haven't been very emotionally affected by this; a little bit, but not very much - I don't know anyone involved, thank goodness. I mean, I *know* it's very sad, and a horrible thing, but I don't quite *feel* it. I hope no one's offended that I don't feel much... but I just don't for some reason.

Regardless, I have to say (and this following paragraph is an opinion from a naive 17 year old who doesn't really know what war and death *are*) that I think the president may be acting on emotion right now, and not making the best decisions. It seems to me, more or less, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the government is willing to declare war on other countries and kill other civilians of those countries if it means that we can punish the terrorists who planned this. But... isn't killing other (innocent) civilians sort of hypocritical? I think I sort of agree with what Mikey is saying in that we, as a country, are abusing our power, which is what caused people to *want* to do this, and now we're just doing it some more. And we're willing to kill more innocent people in order to avenge the death of *our* innocent people? That's hypocritical.

Of course, I don't think we should let the whole thing slide, 'cause we do have to stop the people who might do this again. But if we declare war or something... I don't know what I'd think, really. We have to stop being so cocky.

"you proved my point exactly, thanks!" ?

I see what you're trying to pull there and I don't think it flies Mr Sensitive. Even though I called you a putz, a term I use to dismiss the silly notions of silly people, I do give you credit for having some brain power, misused and misguided as it is. Those words were chosen semi-carefully, to illustrate my point: Those types of actions are completely uncalled for in a civilized world, as are the actions of these terrorists, comparable to a drunken redneck who wants to fight, on a much grander scale.

I would take a spit in the face, punch in the nose and a heckuva lot more (I like to think) cuz it doesn't really hurt me, not as much as it would to thrash someone, or get my butt kicked even worse in the process. But if I happen to be near when you try to harm my family, slap around a defenseless handicapped person, put the moves on a drunken passed out girl or ram an airplane into a building, I'll do my level best to see that you don't get away with it, to defend the defenseless. That's the way things should be.

This vicious cycle needs to be addressed sure, but I've no clue what you're suggesting? Lie down and have a nap? I'd like to apologize for the putz comment there too, I was a little peeved.

Sorry to take the topic off of the news. back to your regularly schedule program?

Jason

one of the thoughts is that if we bomb/declare war on countries who harbor terrorists, they will no longer harbor terrorists. generally, we don't aim for civilian targets anyway, we simply take out strategic millitary targets. i'm not saying that their is no innocent loss of life, but nothing like intentionally blowing up two buildings with 50,000 people in them.

personally, i'm not sure in how we should act. i think our best bet would be to cancel the funds from the nmd into intelligence. even if we install the nmd, it won't work...it's like trying to shoot a bullet with another bullet (this is a conclusion based on research for debate, not just an opinion). the nmd also fucks relations with china and russia, while not really accomplishing anything, whereas increased intelligence might be able to stop something like this from ever happening again.

i think our current best course of action would be to invest all of our resources in finding the people responsible for this horrible act rather than acting on a national level right away.


....and justice for all.

I have to agree with dracusis on this one. This topic should be for NEWS only. No one wants to sort through all these debates to try and find the updates of news. I f you gotta argue or debate post those here

:: Sheesh ::



[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 09-13-2001).]

Spoilt-Milker,

Canada is to the north and Mexico is to the south. Pack.

I will assume what you have said and the position that you hold will change as you mature a little. Perhaps not, but there is hope.



[This message has been edited by lotiss (edited 09-13-2001).]

I don't understand mikey what you are referring to when you say that we are now reaping what we have sowed?

What could we possibly have done to "deserve" an attack that murdered thousands of innocent people? A few trade embargos here, some propaganda there, and our backing of governments that Taliban is at war with. We have never aimlessly attacked a country with only the intent of wreaking havoc and bringing fear over an entire population.

I'm not saying that the US is a perfect angel here, don't misunderstand me. However, if we don't take a stand against this kind of act right now, the acts will continue, that you can be sure of. War is nothing to take lightly and I definitely do not support some of the "bloodthirsty" statements that have been made. Going to war will never make right what has happened, but it can show all those involved in this terrible act that we will not stand for this type of attack.

It ends here or things will get messy.

That's kinda sad Mikey, but I understand. Your entitled to your own opinion and I not going to hold it against you. I understand that at times things just seem different.

This time people got a little offended about what you said and you opinions may be clashing with some of the other people here but to leave and have you account deleted? It's an emotional time for most people right now and reactions will be rash. Some of the people here may have overacted to your posts due to the current circumstances so I ask you not to do the same. There's over 1400 members here now so your never going to agree with everyone about everything. You should already know how wonderfull this place can be but, do you really want to walk away from this for good?

Edit:

Krets: Things are already messy.

However I'd like to point out a very valid point mikey did make. For someone to even consider doing this they would have to be extreamly angry at the US. Hell, for sutch a thing to happen and for all of those people in the middle east to celebrate has to make you wonder what their day-to-day view of America is like. Their convinced that the US is complete and utter sucm and they ain't worth shit. This kinda hatred doesn't happen overnight, it takes years, years in which actions could have been made to help quell sutch an anger. This doesn't exactly spell out the actions of a peace loving nation.

On the other hand, for anyone to launch a deliberate attack any civilian target and you've taken things 10 steps too far. I don't give a fuck who you are, who's wonged you in the past or where the hell you came from, these actions are an act of war. Major acts of war cudtucted without warning or a viable and just cause against populated civilian targets. Well fuck that! I hope you feel the pain of all that have suffered from your deeds for the rest of eternity.

Edit2:

I forgot the brief but impotrant conclusion for my rant...

No one wins here. We have already lost

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 09-13-2001).]

CBS reports- that the FBI and NSA has linked 14 men with the WTC. They are all of middle-east desent and are currently being questioned with a interpretor. Half of those men where found in a hotel in Boston and the other half were found on information given.



[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 09-13-2001).]

The Empire State Building and Penn Station have now been evacuated due to a bomb stiffing dog reacting to a bomb. They say this is not a hoax

Please read here on that subject.

Mikey Milker,

Your "contribution" speaks volumes of your view of things. I made a screenshot of your original topic from yesterday that someone locked so noone could respond and then eventually it was deleted. I am more than willing to point out some alternative points of view to you BUT I cannot for the life of me understand why you chose to piss on the pain and loss that so many people are experiencing right now. It was extremely selfish of you and couldn't have been more poorly timed. If your "goodbye" post can be interpretted in any way as an apology then perhaps there is hope.

Anytime you want to take this up in the philosophy forum, I am more than eager to explain to you why what you say is so flawed as to make responses to it almost futile.

I hope you don't leave us. Most of us around here can handle disagreement. Here's a thought, why not stay and choose not to be so negative? Did that ever even occur to you? You speak of "giving people sh*t and making things difficult" and that your time off did nothing to change that. I've got news for you, you don't *have* to do that. Stay and grow like the rest of us try to do.

I've just heard that the FBI has identified nearly 50 attackers. Some of them took piloting classes here in the US.

I should have been here in this forum earlier but I was busy with lots of assignments.. this is the fastest growing thread in the asylum.

I've seen the attack on CNN, been following the stories. God, this is truly out of this world. No futner comment for now..

I dont know if or how many of you received this email, I thought i would post it here for everyone
to see. I too am not sure when this was broadcast, but I think it fits in here perfectly now.

A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!



[This message has been edited by Nell (edited 09-13-2001).]

2 trains have collided with 300 passengers onboard...a freight train and a AMTrack train in Utah


I feel the need to go focus on something good in all of this madness

this shit makes me wanna cry, it makes me fucking angry as well, at both sides not just the terrorists, but at USA as well. i understand where mikey is coming from and how he feels, hell i've felt that way before...

my love to all of you .....

They just played someones pager recording where a man believed to be one of the lost rescue workers was saying "We are alive....we're alive" So they are trying to locate them at this time. They are trying to track down the phone number to see who left that message. They do however feel it is a rescue worker that was under the WTC when it went down. So there is hope

Well, in some sad way. i agree with mikey milker and i'm so sorry that people don't understand that point of view, shit happen and we have to accept it sometimes...

And mikey milker, you're and ass, but if Dark hasn't go, why you have to? just read what Bugimus just said...

mikey miker, glad to see you go.

PLEASE take this type of talk to email. This is not the time nor place for it

I could write a hundred and one things right now in defense of Mikey Milker.
I don't have time and most people here wouldn't listen anyway.
Good luck, Mikey Milker, and peace.
I know how you feel.

I know how angry you are...not at any terrorists, but at the arrogance and hatred in Americans themselves. I am angry too. I hear people in my office call their co-workers 'camel-fucking towel heads' and 'sand-niggers' when last week they ate lunch together. I hear people screaming for the blood of all countries that support terrorism...without realizing they would be the first to go.

I know how scared you are...not of the violence that any 'terrorist' is going to do to you, but of the right everywhere. Already Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw (the new Ministers of Information) are saying that Americans are going to have to 'rethink some of our civil rights.' That scares me. FDR said, "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself." Most people don't fully understand what that means. I have a feeling you do. Good. Don't forget it.

I know the sorrow you feel for everybody who has and will be wounded or killed because of decisions made by other people. Mostly those people are the workers of the society, dying for the decisions of their 'leaders'. American or Afghan or Christian or Muslim or anything else...they are all people, and those people have been, and will be, killed because of the decisions of their leaders. There is nothing more dangerous than idle nationalism and misguided patriotism.

I know the frustration and hopelessness that invades your thoughts on most days. Tonight, or whenever, when the cruise missle blasts light up your television screen on prime time, 'everybody else' will be cheering. I will be thinking about the janitor in the building that just got hit. How he is dying. I will be thinking that, in a lot of ways, he is just like me. He's a guy who is trying to feed his family. I will also feel frustrated that the cycle of violence will continue, and there is nothing that I or he could do about it. Instead of trying to understand each other, the US will again try to prove that might equals right. I have a feeling, Mikey, that you will feel the same way.

Good luck, and peace.

mobrul

worth reading

So, Mobrul Welcome to the club. Three people here feel the same way now......

I know parts of this have been posted, but this a longer version...

Nostradamus said:

"In the year of the new century and nine months,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror...
The sky will burn at forty-five degrees.
Fire approaches the great new city..."
"In the city of york there will be a great collapse,
2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos
while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb
third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

[This message has been edited by CryoniX (edited 09-13-2001).]

I won't pretend to defend nor attack anyone here. I will tell a few of my positions on these events, and leave it at that.

Whoever attacked the US did so because they were fighting for their beliefs. That's the way these things start. We decried it. And now we want to do the same thing.

How many more thousands must die because we believe our beliefs, our "freedoms," are more important or superior to anothers?

That will never stop, Twitch, is our nature...

(please do not delete this)

Ya know these posts about Nostradamus are really odd. I'm beginning to believe that they are similar to the "Village Idiot" Nostradamus hoax.
Can anyone tell me the exact century and stanza that these quotes come from? I've been digging through both translations I have of Nostradamus's predictions, and I cannot find these quotes anywhere.
Of course I'm not very familiar with them, as I recieved both as gifts, and have never actually read them.

The Mayor of N.Y. reports that 4,700+ people have been reported missing or are unaccounted for.

Including: Occupants/Employees of the Towers, Rescue workers, Police and Fire, and all people on the 2 Air Liners that hit the Towers.

Horrible, just Horrible.

quote:

---

(CNN) -- New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Thursday that the list of people missing in the terrorist destruction of the World Trade Center towers had grown to 4,763. The mayor said that 94 bodies had been recovered, 46 of them identified

---

[This message has been edited by Xcessive Force (edited 09-13-2001).]

updates

My wife is an EMT is Salt Lake City and was suposed to come off shift at 7:30 AM this morning. She has been held over in the City to keep the support levels up there to cmpensate for those that had to rush the the Train wreck. They have flow at least 3 people to LDS and University Hospitals and transported severals others via ground but most are minor or no injuries they are bussing at leat 150 people to SLC just because it is the closest big city. My wife is of the opinion that My family should leave for the Olympics. I live in Tooel very close to the chemical weapons disposal plant.

Hey F1!

Read about it here

That quote is said to be written by Nostradamus almost a 100 years after he died. Whatta guy!

We fight a Holy War and a Faith that is thousands of years old. We do not fight a people, just a faith. The west is evil in the eyes of radical Muslims and will always be evil without compromise. The western powers will have to make a choice. Live with this problem forever or remove it from this and future generations.

The true Muslim faith is a peaceful faith, its only radical individual interpretation of their faith that needs changing not the true Faith. The Jews as well as Western Christianity also have radicals that are polluting the true faiths. Hold on to your seat , no matter where you live it will be in the front row.
The world is about to change how we look at radical faiths. Radical Muslims, Jews and Christians will be under the microscope
This is just my opinion. Thanks for reading
Keeter

Keeter

Happy Trails

They have just pulled 5 firefighters alive in a SUV under the WTC

Yesssssssssssss

I want to ask a question of mikey, twitch, mobrul, and anyone else who might support the viewpoint that they do.

What should we do?

If war is not the answer, how do we prevent this from happening again? Nothing changes the things the US has done in the past and I don't support many of them. Do you actually think that we deserved that? Should we just let it go? I'm not saying that we need to wipe certain ethnic groups or countries off the face of the planet, I don't support that at all, but we must do something to defend ourselves against this immediately. If this goes unpunished it will be like the dog that doesn't get swatted when it bites. It will bite again.

So what would you do? Granted, we need to look at our foreign policy and what we could have done to prevent this kind of anger and hatred towards us. There are many areas that we need to take a hard look at. But how do we deal with those responsible?

Please share your thoughts on what should be done. Not for revenge, but to punish those responsible and show them that this cannot go without penalty.

Cut-n-Paste from the CNN website:

"Nine Australians have been confirmed dead, with a further 85 missing."

15 min's ago on the news they were only saying that 3 Australians have been confirmed dead??? How odd.

"Chinese President Jiang Zemin sent a message to Bush expressing sympathy over the deadly attacks."

I was wondering what China was thinking about all of this, seing their one of the strongest military powers in the world right about now... This is good.

It appears that almost every country around the world flocked to support America. It's not supprising given the complete un-militristic and inhumane nature of these events. Some good may come of this yet. Russia is now expressing intrest in Joining NATO, and I'd expect many more to do the same in the near future.

The world did change overnight, and I think it's brought us closer togther. It's sad that it only happen in times of dire need but it happens none the less. There's Iorny here too. These terrorist actions were conducted on American soil but they were to some degree attacks anainst certain ideals and ways of life. These American Ideals are shared globaly, therefore these attacks have been viewed as attacks against world on a whole. Now we've got 95% of the entire planets military forces at our disposal in order to claim our Justice. It actualy quite similar to your classic fairy-tail war story. The world fudes amunst each other untill such an event that exposes a greater threat, a threat not just to them selves but to all. The world then unites to battle this new evil.

That may sound a little far fetched and stupidly patriotic but you still can't deny the fact that it's just happened.

Drac.

Yeah, I like the fact that the vast majority of international responses have been not political reactions, but -human- reactions.

It's sad that it takes something like this to unite the world, but it's still nice to see.

Whatever form this 'Justice' comes in only concerns me if it will affect innocent life. Now, the hard question is, who is innocent and who is guilty? Should you kill every single member on this terrorist organisation? What if their so big that some people actualy get born into it. If you are raised with certain ideas and relegious beliefs then you know no better. Does this deem your acts innocent or guilty? What if someone's only mildly involved? What if you were involved but you didn't know exactly what they were planning. Then you see the news and think, fuck this, I'm outa here! I don't want any part of this. Then you get caugth, should you die?

Are we going to question each and every person's involvnemt in this organisation and them issue them a worth punishment.

No, I don't think so.

It's impossible to draw that line. Just impossible. Innocent and good natured people will still die in the cause for justice. The question of war has already been answered, the war started a long time ago, and it's not over yet.

I'm not saying that we should do nothing. We must act, but when we do, we will shed blood, in the name of justice or outright revenge it matters not. Innocent blood will be spilt again.



Ok, I think I'll go and be depressed somewhere else for a while....

this is a very weird picture, take a look at it...
http://www.netgen.de/wtc/wtfisthat.jpg

[This message has been edited by CryoniX (edited 09-13-2001).]

CryoniX: Now thats just spooky. I had to look at that again. But come on if you look up into the clouds you see images anyway (Remember when your where little and you would see things in the sky, and not flyin sources). but let me see it again

My Aunt works in the Pentagon. Her office was destroyed. It was being renovated. She was in another wing.

That was just too close.

Through all this terror, I have one comment on things... to try and return to my myth/philosophy-oriented bent on this forum...

I am quite disgusted by the Nostradamus quotes. Also, academically, it is interesting to see myth, hero, and legend begin to develop from this tragic epic. But Nostradums doesn't deserve to be part of that. I realize there are enough fools in the world to support numerous psychic hotlines and even TV shows about communig with the dead, but I have just been so afraid to face that side of humanity coming to participate in these events.

You see, although so many people around us are already suffering from "Chicken Little" syndrome, for once, it seems time to take an opportunity to embrace exactly the opposite mentality. Instead of fearing the world will end tomorrow, instead imagine (as many are) a more united world, a more confident and stolid world, capapble of not only surviving the occasional insurgent demons, but in fact strengthening in the face of them.

Certainly, the debate over our policies and our future civil rights will be fierce, but I think this kind of subject is separate from the collective human psyche that is at a crossroads. And may we all push and heave towards the road of Hope and Strength instead of Fear and Weakness.

- Ben

krets: You ask what should be done. I think that a restrained and well thought out response would go a long way to restoring some of the respect that the US has lost in some quarters due to its foreign policies.

If it is bin Ladin then I'd like to see the Taliban hand him over to an international court or at the least to turn a blind eye while a special forces snatch squad retrieves him. We are moving to a place where perpetrators of such crimes can no longer get away with these things. All that flattening Kabul would do is increase anger and resentment against the US (which will lead to further and more extreme attacks in the future) and probably let the real criminals off the hook.

You don't need war to have justice.

Just my opinion,

Emps

"I like long posts, that's why i admire Emperor Posts!!" (Wakkos)

Worthy of note:

1. There will be a Europe-wide 3 minutes of silence at 11am on Friday.

2. The British Parliament is being recalled on Friday - some intelligence analysts think that there may be significance to this as this is done very rarely - in recent years this has happened after the Omagh bombing (which was one of the major events which has led to the, rather unstable, peace in Northern Ireland), and for the onset of the Falklands and Gulf Wars. So it might be something worth keeping an eye on.

Emps

"I like long posts, that's why i admire Emperor Posts!!" (Wakkos)

Fair question, Krets. I won't answer for Mikey or Twitch or anybody else, but...
If the supreme court would have declared me President last Nov., I would do a few things, simultaneously.

1)Conduct an investigation into who is responsible, ask for international help, and demand that person/those people be brought to the World Court to stand trial for war crimes, murder, whatever. I'm no lawyer so I can't go into specific charges, but the World Court was set up for this sort of thing, we have signed treaties, we should abide by those.

2)Announce that the US will not be a supporter of terrorism. That goes for friends and foes.

3)Stop our $6 billion/yr support of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians. Israel doesn't get one more cent from us until they comply with the 200+ UN decisions saying that Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory is illegal. This includes, but is not limited to, UN resolutions 194 and 242. Not one cent, not one helocopter, rocket, tank, rifle or bullet.

4)Stop our support of non-democratic, monarchical governments in Jordon, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, etc. We talk and talk and talk of democracy, yet when the king of Jordon dies and passes on the throne to his son, C l i n t o n was right there praising him at the funeral. This isn't the only example...

5)Stop our support of the war in Columbia. The UN, Amnesty International, and the Catholic Church have all called Columbia the country with 'the worst human rights record, in the world.' And the US is, by far, the largest contributor to their military. Often the argument is raised that we are stopping drugs from reaching the US. Time and time again financial and economic analysts all over the world have said that the only reason there is so much cocaine grown there is because US trade 'agreements' make it IMPOSSIBLE for a farmer to make a living raising any other crop. Wheat, corn, beans, etc. are not economically productive crops in Columbia because we force them to sell to us at such a low price. Given a choice between starvation and growing/selling drugs, I think that most everybody here would choose the later. Given a real choice between legal or illegal work, I think that most everybody in the world would choose the former.

6)Stop our support of Turkey in their terroristic war against the Kurds. Again, most every other nation in the world has condemned this action, yet we still support it. In Turkey the army/police often kill Kurds because they speak a different language. No wonder they are pissed and want a country of their own. And America supports the Turkish government with money, tanks, helicopters, rockets and rifles.

7)Stop our embargo on Iraq. I don't want to minimize the very real threat that exists, but the embargo has succeded in killing at least 700,000 innocent Iraqi people while having zero effect on the government in power.

8)Stop all other support of terrorist and oppressive activities in the world, and activily speak out and act out against them.

9)Pay our UN dues, abide by the agreements we've signed, and sign a few of those agreements that we haven't: The convention on the rights of the child (this one is a no-brainer--only non-signers in the world:US and Somalia, and we refuse), prohibition against anti-personnel land mines, etc. And make an honest effort to be part of the world COMMUNITY, not the world TYRANT.

9)Promise, and stick to it, that absolutely no civil liberties in the US will be 'revisited'.

There it is. If I were president of the United States, that is what I would do. That is the only way that the US can help stop the cycle of violence. That is the only way that the US can really come out of this horrible tragedy with its head held high.
Not master or slave.
Some say that this is 'impossible'.
In my mind, 'impossible' simply means that the people in power don't want it.

mobrul

You see? there are solutions without killing more people or going to a war, or invade a country.

In fact, Krets, War can show all those involved in this terrible act that we will not stand for this type of attack, but it will be just another biggert World Trade Center. 'you kill americans, americans kill people' that's not a smart way out. methink

I would have to immediately agree with everything that mobrul said in that (rather lengthy) post. It's well thought-out, logical, and not emotionally-driven, unlike 99% of America right now.

How do you stop robbery? If your house had been robbed ("invaded?"), then you beef up security. If it happens again, you beef up more. You simply do not go and murder all humans that could've perpetuated that act. You do not seek out the robber and rob him/her. If it ended up being a black man that robbed you last time (there were witnesses), you do not start up a war against black people.

You increase your own security. You put in an alarm. You change your windows to plastic windows. You move. You do any number of things that do not equate what the US wants to do to everyone with light brown skin and black hair. You do not start a war. You do not kill innocent people.

My sister died of leukemia last year. I did not go out and kill every doctor I could find, did I?

Some money fell out of my pocked several weeks ago. I did not go out and kill all jeans manufacturers, did I?

The point is that violence is simply not the answer in most cases. We were hit, and we were hit hard. 10,000 people may be dead. The proper response to this is not to go kill 20,000 in retaliation, most of whom would be innocent - just like those in the WTC and Pentagon buildings. It doesn't make sense now, and it won't make sense later.

The answer is in foreign policy. The answer is to stop inviting this sort of activity.

Kretsminky: You asked, "What should we do about this?" It seems to me that it is time for all of us (the entire world to start acting as if we are all part of the same world. It should not be the responsibility of the United States to respond to the terrorist action that occurred in New York, but the entire world should stand up (and is standing up) to say, "We will not tolerate this kind of behavior." If we are to go to war as a response to this action, it must be a decision of the entire world to go to war against the perpetrators. It is time for the United States to stop taking the attitude that we will help out only if someone can show us that it is our national interest. The peace of the world is in everyone's national interest and we must all work together toward that end.

We saw a beginning of this kind of cooperation when most countries around the world stood up against Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. I think we are seeing even more support of the United States by the countries of the world today, and we need to continue to work on developing an "Us and Us" attitude, as opposed to "Us and Them".

This crisis is an opportunity for us all to work on getting along and supporting each other, rather than trying to point out how different we are from each other and how anyone who is or thinks differently must be wrong.

Remember: Our differences make us strong.

I think I agree with twItch^ and mobrul on this one. Especially on the Israel/Palestinian front.

And suppose it is Bin Laden behind this and the US/UN do go after him directly and not using diplomacy as their primary weapon and succeed in killing him (and probably a few of his group as well as bystanders)

Then what will happen?

I'll tell you: He'll gain martyr status!
Not a situation I'd like to see...

Mobrul, Mikey, Twitch and Hiperbole, the club is growing!!!
you guys make me so happy!!!!! Edit: And Nimraw!

I really agree with twItch^, as i said before, shit happens, we have to accept it sometimes. The world is like it is, and America is inside the world, that means that not only the good things come to America, but the bads thing too!
And all that is part of the world, what are we going to do? go and set up a war with anycountry that we don't like?
We all have lost beautiful things, for one or another reason, but that doesn't justify respond actions with more violence. twItch^ is right: increase security. If my neighbourg is a fucking damm crazy, i just close my windows and door at night, i know he's crazy, What can i do??? a lot, but, should I?

[This message has been edited by Wakkos (edited 09-13-2001).]

Twitch - "You do any number of things that do not equate what the US wants to do to everyone with light brown skin and black hair. You do not start a war. You do not kill innocent people."

Isn't that a generalization on the same level you accuse the US of making? I'd like to see your source for concluding that EVERYONE in the United States wants to kill EVERYONE with light brown skin and black hair.

I saw the footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets, celebrating the attack. Yet, I understand that that represents a minority of Palestinian opinion, and that most Palestinians are pretty much like me, just somewhere else.

Yes, we can make corrections in foreign policy where it's needed, but that doesn't mean we can't track down those responsible and see them punished.

(Personally, I hope that all the grieving nations of the world have an opportunity to take part in this effort, whether it be in hunting and capturing the terrorists, trying them in the World Court, whatever. Particularly, I'd like to see Middle Eastern countries take part, just to show those responsible that NO ONE, not even those they may consider 'their own', will support them in these kinds of actions, and that such an attack harms everyone the world over.)

And don't judge the American government for what -you- think they -might- do; that's as bad as assuming without proof that bin Ladin, or Afghanistan, or Iraq is behind the attack in the first place.

Don't hate a Nation for the fanaticism of a few.

I understand what you are all trying to say, and let me make it clear that I do not think we should just go out and carpet-bomb the middle east. However, if your house gets robbed thousands of innocent people did not die. Your belongings can be replaced. Your sister died of a disease, the doctors didn't kill her, that argument doesn't make any sense. I've lost several members of my family to cancer and heart disease, I don't understand the analogy on that one.

Make no mistake, this is an act of war. This was a carefully planned and carried out operation the likes of which we have never seen before. This took more than the resources of one person. Some of these people, called "sleepers", had been in the US for several years just waiting for their call. This is not just a matter of a car bomb, this took backing. We need to find out who was backing these people and eliminate them.

Throw the guy in jail? Come on guys, you know exactly what that will result in. More hostage situations, more hijackings, and more death all in the name of freeing these people. This wouldn't just happen in the US either, it would be global.

What I am saying is not that we should go after an entire country. We need to go after those responsible when we find out who they are. Not just to throw them in jail but to completely and permanently cripple the resources that have allowed them to create such widespread panic. We need to make it known that this kind of act is not without consequence.

If we don't, we might as well start digging bunkers and lining them with supplies.

The problem is that the people on the earth have different religion, and as long as they do there will always be a war. I say that religion is the problem

Sorry if my English is bad

I hear you Krets!

I just think it's important to emphasize that for such an action to fully work out as intended you need cooperation of the countries/cultures that is close to the perpetrators.

For arguments sake say it's Bin Laden who's the mastermind behind this tragedy.

Scenario #1
We (US/The western world/whatever) just go in there and take him out, there will be chaos and retaliation from people who sympathize with his cause.

Scenario #2
We take him out and also punish the Afghanistan population/regime for harbouring him, the effect will be the same.

Scenario #3
If the Talibans can be persuaded to drop him off at our doorstep, and we acknowledge that act, the message to his followers will be that their once safe haven does not accept terrorism anymore, thus making it harder for them to operate. Even if we just send him to jail until the next millenium, the very way of how he was apprehended will probably lessen the risk of futher terrorist attacks.


We must remember that the people behind this is poor (in comparison to a country) and has little means of fighting back in a warlike or even civilized manner, and that's what bothering me with the use of the term "war" in the presidents statements. As long as it's used as in "war on crime", or "war on cancer" I accept it, but if "war" actually means war than I'm worried. That kind is hard to fight against a foe with no territory. You have no land to conquer and you have no idea as to where his resources are kept.

I think you get the general idea of my post. I just think that diplomacy is the sharpest weapon available.
It'll probably take longer to use, but the possible benefits are much greater.
Since I'm not by far a diplomat nor a military strategist it's all in my theoretical humble opinion of course.

-nimraw

[This message has been edited by Nimraw (edited 09-13-2001).]

"And don't judge the American government for what -you- think they -might- do; that's as bad as assuming without proof that bin Ladin, or Afghanistan, or Iraq is behind the attack in the first place."

I'll judge the american government for what it has done then:

We have created a worldwide hatred of America, and Americans. We have sponsored terrorism across the globe. We have used our economic power to crush those who oppose the American Way of Life(tm). We have wasted trillions of dollars on bigger, faster, more deadly weapons. We have overstepped our bounds, and openly defiled our Constitution.

We have been waging wars on others for many years now. Only once before have these wars reached our soil, and for that transgression we nuked the offendor twice, and occupied their homeland for many years. Now we finally have really felt the reprocussions of our actions. I want to cry out, to extend my sorrow, I want to cry for justice, but I cannot. This has been long over due.

We are the cowardly, we are the heartless, we have brought this upon ourselves, and even now, we refuse to accept that we are at least partly responsible.

Time to grow up and stop acting like the 300 pound 12 year old we are.

I do not support bloodshed. Nor do I think we are anything but mortals.

We have lived by the sword, and now we are dying by the sword.

/me expects to be hated by 99% of you now, and that is exactly my point. We refuse to even give the most cursory examination of others, instead we simply write them off as radicals, or cowards, and claim they are inhumane when they believe different things.

And I hope your mother dies of cancer for the time that she cursed at that driver who cut her off in traffic.

I just summed up your entire post in one fucking sentence.

Ah, your post is perfect example of the level of intelligent responses I expected to get.

First off, its not nice to talk about my mother, that was fairly rude to wish such things upon her, as she is a very nice person, and does have cancer, and has probably never cursed a truck driver in her life. Besides, the more appropriate analogy would have been for my mother to die because of the actions of not herself, but someone she supported.

Second of all, my mother cursing someone for cutting her off is a far cry from our irresponsible military actions which have resulted in many "innocents" deaths.

Oh well, go back to your little cave where everything america does is peachy-keen and that everyone else in the world will absolutly love us forever.

Those still struggling to understand why the US is so disliked globally might want to read this - its called "They can't see why they are hated" and is from one of the UK newspapers:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html

Emps

"I like long posts, that's why i admire Emperor Posts!!" (Wakkos)

In response to that article I post this by a canadian author. Originally printed in 1973 ut us still valid


America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator.
What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in
the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of
dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is
today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United
States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans
who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on
the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened
by tornadoes.

Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars
into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the Decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet,
the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines
except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman
on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.

You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk
about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but
several times -and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the
store window for everybody to look at .

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on
our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws,
are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania
Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help
even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing
with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their
nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."




:[ Computers let you make more mistakes faster than any other invention in human history, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. ]: