What a load of effing patronising crap, isn't it just...
The trouble with all this church deal is that one (I) feels like a right idiot at any time for doing things one should not. It is a such world of guilt, redemption, forgiveness, self-affliction and shame. Not for me, thank you very much. If people want to tie themselves to unnatural rules and emotional burdens, fair on them.
One of the main messages I, for myself, understand from my spirituality, is that life is meant to be lived - not feared.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-12-2006 17:21
?Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming ~ WOOHOO what a ride!?
quote:jade said:Thwarting that plan is unhealthy sexual unions that don't produce, add or help to the planet. Therefore the only meaning they have is unto themselves, which is selfish love masqueraded.
So does this include opposite sex couples that can not produce? They don't "help" the planet"
What about opposite sex couples that can no longer produce? They can no longer "help" the planet?
Also is 1 produced life enough to prove that they have "helped" this planet?
Does your criteria demand a certain amount of "production" to prove that they did "help" the planet?
Maybe you had better explain what you mean by "help".
quote:jade said:Those who are not spiritually disciplined cannot find a peace.
I disagree. All humans can find "peace". Just maybe not YOUR "peace". And that's the point really. Your vision of "peace" is not the answer for everyone. Your not just voicing your opinion of homosexuals to others, you are forcing your opinion on others. And spiritually speaking your karma is in the RED.
quote:jade said:Their body dominates the mind instead of the mind dominates the body. Therefore they are always thirsty for what they think will bring them the greatest of pleasures,
This is more of a specific example of an addict than it is for the simple majority of humans. We are not all weak and lack the ability to overcome our "temptations". Be it food or sex. You are again making sweeping assumptions of all people and their actions. The use of food in an analogy is a good choice, so in that line of thinking, just because you have your recipe for chocolate cake, doesn't mean that everyone else's recipe for chocolate cake is inferior or wrong or unacceptable in the eye's of God. Why? Because Jade, YOU do not speak for him.
quote:jade said:There is no God in a homosexual union. Never will be.
I disagree. If God means anything to anyone it is that he IS love. And the love of 2 same sex parents is sometimes a feat unmatched or unequaled by opposite sex couples. Simple put oppositie sex couples do not in any way guarantee love will be in their household or their hearts or the minds. So it makes no sense to allow the guaranteed love that same sex couples can offer in rearing children simply because they are not of the "nuclear" family. It's idiotic to think that procreation with 2 people of the oppositie sex guarantees anything.
quote:jade said: Men are suppose to gratify God with their bodies in thoughts, words, and especially deeds.
First you speak for God, then you speak for Christians, now your speaking on behalf of MEN? Who are you and what horse did you ride in on?!?!? I am a man Jade and you do not speak for me. As a matter of fact I doubt you can speak for any man here! J.C., the audacity of some people! And note Jade that I didn't say women. Why? Because I can not and should not speak for the opposite sex of which I am not a part of. You should try it sometime. It does wonders to your ability to understand others/humans.
quote:jade said:Homosexual behavior is a choice.
I disagree. This statement is absolutely wrong. It is a belief based not on facts but of ignorance.
And let me say this Jade.
It may be the result of ignorance on the part of a person who presents such arguments of homosexuality because they are ignoring all cultural and socio-economic influences. Agreed?
But if after long and repeated attempts to educate that person to the big picture, that person still believes homsexuals are inferior in anyway shape or form then it seems proper to conclude that instead of that person merely holding ignorant bigotted beliefs that the person is indeed a bigot. Don't you agree?
I don't think the planet needs much "help" when it comes to making sure the humans stick around. Just based on the state of the environment, I think maybe abstaining from reproduction helps the humans more. But then, the environment is a different topic altogether.
Oh, and uh, oh yeah. Gays can reproduce. Sperm and ovaries, still intact.
In Christian marriage God in the divine plan did not intend that strength in a man and the beauty in a women should endure forever but that they should reappear in their children and to me this is where God's providence reveals itself. God sends children to protect and revive both that was from their parents. The strength and human characteristics that fades in the father is revived in the son and the beauty and charm that once once the mother's now is revived in the daughter. How many times have we heard...about my daughter...that is you all over again.. or you son is the image of you husband all over again. For us each child that is born of a christan marriage is a binding of both parents in love. In the sexual union of these Christian persons, love is made flesh and will dwell among both of them. The fruit of their union. A true marriage is a romance that last forever and in these what is revealed? The body mystery, motherhood, fatherhood which shows a mothercraft and fathercraft implemented and taught. In this the sculpting from both parents form the conscienceousness of the child. We parents are in a trusteeship under our Christian God. Christian children are on loan like a spiritual project and an extension of the fruit of much labor. And our main objective in family christian life is to make our love spread and ascend upwards.
I remember when my husband and I first married and we were so affectionate in love and we would just stare at each other all the time. Like our eyes were always glued to each other. Then after marriage when the children set in you become focus on life issues and making ends meet but then you still want to focus on the love and romance you once shared here and there, but the instensity of the love is not like it was at courtship. When the firstborn comes you see what you both produced together so the love between both of you is refreshed in another phase. The love goes deeper...the eyes that use to stare at each other in love are now staring and focused on the new soul in wornderment of what was mutually created. Life becomes sweeter. This is why economics should never affect the raising of children in how am I going to provide, because with faith God always provides. And in this becomes a new page of married life.. in the raising of children.
Shaeon
Yes, homosexuals still have the right stuff to produce thank God, but in our Christian thought the way they go about it is contrary to the nature in how our Chrisitan God created the concept of family life. Lesbian couples have to find a donor and usually pay some money if the third party is not willing to give it for free. Or go to a sperm bank and choose as if they were buying a new car by checking what kind of a maker it comes from. Homosexual men can produce sperm but have to get a female host that they would also have to pay money to. For us, this deflects the divine plan and is not Christan in thought however one wants to make it to satisfy a current family lifestyle. Clearly, if one follows Christian principles and adheres to scripture, they will see no role model in apolostic teachings who ensposued this lifestyle or spoke lovingly of it as being good, holy and pleasing to the Almghty God. Yes, we on this planet are a diversity of people in thought, customs, faiths, party lines, etc which makes this country blessed and great...but that is not to be confused with proclaiming and pushing a law to make the social family life of homosexual unions as mainstream and comparable to traditional heterosexual unions. Historically there has never been any history on same sex union societies except for our Christian biblical story of a destoryed city. I don't see a historically a same sex union producing in our culture & if they have never impacted the world in anyway as opposed to traditional unions up to this point.
I don't think you will see a future president named Scott Johnson married to Hector Gonzales with adopted children in the background ever taking his oath of office in this USof A. As we see in current or past events, homosexual parternships in govermnent are frowed upon. Look how ex-govenor McGreevy resigned because of his closeted homosexuality and here recently a Florida congressman.
The United States of America founded on Christian principles is still a Christian nation and the choosing of George W. Bush reflects it.
Good commentary from Ben Stein in case you missed it
Excuse me????
Mark Foley was a closeted practicing homosexual congressman who had relationships with men his own age and surfed the web for minors too. So he did not limit his appetites to an age group. Who is the ditwit here?
McGreevey was a govenor who was a closeted homosexual having consenting sex with men while he was married with children, with the possibility he was infecting his wife having sex with her too. During his time as govenor he roamed bathhouses, parks (like George Michael) and brief encounters in dark alleys. He was having sex with strange men he would meet at bars. He would have two hour or less encounters on many occasions. And he fell in love with a man who outted him for money because he would not give him prefered treatment meaning a permanent job with the state of New Jersey.
Now he claims on Ophra from his book that hes is finally happy and in love with a man of his dreams and they now play house somewhere and he wants to get involved with helping children. I see a flag her.
quote:Just when I thought Jade wouldn't present something mind-numbingly irrelevant, she comes through.
Well ....then why are you responding to my post if its irrevelant. Who figures????
Jade, the only point worth saying anything about in your post:
quote:but in our Christian thought the way they go about it is contrary to the nature in how our Chrisitan God created the concept of family life.
Thankfully, this is not a christian theocracy, and when it comes to enacting laws, we really don't care about what your religion says about how we should live.
It looks like I deleted my post while Jade was still working on her reply. Sorry for the confusion, folks.
quote:Mark Foley was a closeted practicing homosexual congressman who had relationships with men his own age and surfed the web for minors too. So he did not limit his appetites to an age group. Who is the ditwit here?
And? The fact that he is a pedophile is what was at issue, not that fact that he is homosexual. You were implying he represented the nation's rejection of homosexuals. It's the fact that he was pretending to fight child predators while he himself was preying on children. And the word I used was "dimwit," dimwit.
quote:
quote:Just when I thought Jade wouldn't present something mind-numbingly irrelevant, she comes through.
Well ....then why are you responding to my post if its irrevelant. Who figures????
The response you quoted from me was in direct response to the Ben Stein comments you linked to, which remain irrelevant. Completely. But the real question is why do you continue to post irrelevant drivel?
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 10-13-2006 21:24
I remember when my significant other and I first got married to one another and we were so affectionate in love and we would just stare at each other all the time. Like our eyes were always glued to each other. Then after our marriage to each other when the children set in you become focus on life issues and making ends meet but then you still want to focus on the love and romance you once shared here and there, but the instensity of the love is not like it was at courtship. When the first child comes you see what you both have together so the love between both of you is refreshed in another phase. The love goes deeper...the eyes that use to stare at each other in love are now staring and focused on the new soul in wornderment of what is mutually had. Life becomes sweeter. This is why economics should never affect the raising of children in how am I going to provide. And in this becomes a new page of being together.. in the raising of children.
Just replaced a "few" things, to represent a homosexual pair - because that is the reality, Jade. There is absolutely no difference between your union and a homosexual union.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote:I don't think you will see a future president named Scott Johnson married to Hector Gonzales with adopted children in the background ever taking his oath of office in this USof A. As we see in current or past events, homosexual parternships in govermnent are frowed upon.
And just for the record - it wasn't long ago you could replace 'homosexual' with 'black', 'jewish', 'woman', etc.
As you can see from many current political trends, it's not so far fetched to speak in terms of Female, Jewish, or Black presindents today. I don't foresee an openly gay president in the near future. There are a lot of things I don't see in the near future. It doesn't make those things wrong.
As for America being founded as a christian nation, we have covered this ad nauseum, and you are very undeniably wrong. It is not even a matter of debate - the facts are there, and can't be ignored, no matter how hard you try.
quote:WebShaman said: Just replaced a "few" things, to represent a homosexual pair - because that is the reality, Jade. There is absolutely no difference between your union and a homosexual union.
Well, at least in my relationship, no difference except for all that mushy staring at one another. Vomit!
I mean, I can be as romantic as anyone, but bleah. That's a lot of staring.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-14-2006 20:49
What makes me want to vomit the most is Jade's conviction that a "true" marriage is one that produces children only in the natural way (missionary position only, of course!).
So a couple, any couple, that uses artificial insemination or fertility drugs or any other form of medical aid to procreate is wrong and contrary to the "Almighty God?" Or what about adoption?
Screw that. I can not have children. I tried once, it didn't work out. You know what? It doesn't make my marriage any less valid or less loving than anyone else's. My best friends have three children, and one of the greatest days of my life was when they asked me to be godmother to their youngest daughter. I got to hold her when she was only a few hours old, and marvel at the wonderous glory of a new life. I delight in seeing their kids and have realized that it's not for me. I have no desire at all to be a mother, and honestly wonder at the women who are having kids at my age or older (39+ in other words) just because they feel the mommy urge now. These friends and others of mine are all far more religious than I am, and you know what? Not a one of them has ever felt the urge to testify or claim that their lifestyle was better than anyone else's in our circle.
I'm so glad that I have nice, accepting, loving friends instead of the hypocritical, judgemental type that Jade represents.
edit - because code is hard
_____________________ coeur de feu :: Grimwell Online
Qui sème le vent récolte la tempête!
my personal opinion of homosexuality is my own.(period)
as for the state recognizing homosexual marriage and allowing them the legal benefits that come with it, fair is fair.
as for whatever church wants to recognize such a union, well, there seems to be a church for just about anything one wants to believe these days, so what?
but this
quote:The United States of America founded on Christian principles is still a Christian nation and the choosing of George W. Bush reflects it.
i don't know whether to laugh or cry
p.s. for jade -- what would you think about a homosexual hermaphrodite couple with all working parts? even though they prefer the homosex (who's zoomin' who?), not only could they have each others children, but they could both be mommy AND daddy too.
p.s. for jade -- what would you think about a homosexual hermaphrodite couple with all working parts? even though they prefer the homosex (who's zoomin' who?), not only could they have each others children, but they could both be mommy AND daddy too.
And, jsut for the record: god made them that way. What was god's plan with hermaphrodites, Jade? I am *very* curious to hear you DIRECTLY answer that one, Jade.
quote:WebShaman said: The point I was making shaeon is that homosexuals are human just like everyone else and have relationships just like everyone else.
This is what Jade is denying. She is in denial.
Just trying to lighten the mood a little. Of course, I agree with your point.
It's just hard for me to take Jade seriously. And Jade, if you care why I said that, it's because your arguments loop over on themselves, and there seems to be no forethought of logic, or research. For example, you say that there is no history of same sex unions except for in a "fallen city." I assume you are referring to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
However, there have been same sex unions and marriages all throughout history, going back to ancient times, in many different cultures.
Further Jade, you spent a lot of time talking about what God's plan for Christian marriage is. But this disregards that we are in a country that does not have a national religion, and that guarantees us in the First Amendment the right to freedom of religion. In this country, two atheists, or Buddhists, or Muslims do not have to see a Christian minister and have a Christian wedding to be recognized as wed by the state. The national argument of gay marriage is whether or not the states should allow it, not whether churches should allow it.
We understand that you think gay marriage is against God. You've made that clear.
However, what a lot of us are saying is that in a nation with freedom of religion, people should have equal access to marriage.
As a side note, it's probably offensive to a few people that you are saying what God's will is. Many people consider it wrong to speak for God.
quote: shaeon said:
As a side note, it's probably offensive to a few people that you are saying what God's will is. Many people consider it wrong to speak for God.
It is, to me, very much so. Beside the patronising side of it, which makes me climb up walls, I feel it is very much blaspheming too - if I dare say, as far as my spirituality is concerned. Who on Earth do you think you are, Jade, as this question has already been raised a few times? What makes you feel like you know the Truth, beyond everyone's beliefs, education, spirituality, inner world or whatever else - note that I use "spirituality" here to avoid confusion with religion? I other words, to put it more generally as you tend to speak for the whole Universe, what makes Christians think they are above non Christians?
It really seems like you are using and twisting the words of God to impose your own opinion about things that disturb you or your education; which is very different from spreading God's words, as you describe. I think you really ought to take a step back and ask yourself whether all this intolerant stream of nonsense you pour in this forum is actually God's word, or your own.
To shaeon: I appreciate you must get greatly desperate and frustrated when being confronted to people who share Jade's pathetically narrow-minded views on life. Unfortunately, I feel that there is a weird and alarming tendency from some governments I know to mould its people into a perfectly smooth and even shape - never mind the narrow-minded.
In other words, I do think the issue here is not what Jade or anyone else thinks, but how they actually got to develop such thinking. I tend to pity narrow-minded and self-content people rather than blame them; the blame should go the government in most cases, which kills freedom of thought.
[edit] I probably went to far with blaming the governments in this matter; perhaps I should have said some communities, or organisations. Or the Church. [/edit]
quote:Who on Earth do you think you are, Jade, as this question has already been raised a few times? What makes you feel like you know the Truth, beyond everyone's beliefs, education, spirituality, inner world or whatever else - note that I use "spirituality" here to avoid confusion with religion? I other words, to put it more generally as you tend to speak for the whole Universe, what makes Christians think they are above non Christians
Who do I think I am????...well I am a Christian ( a follower of Jesus Christ). ALL CHRISTIANS SPEAK FOR CHRIST.....This is what Christ told his followers to do. " Anyone who hears you..hears me". However, you want to see me is your prerogative. If you want to call me ignorant, out of touch it really doesn't matter to me. To spread the TRUTH as they, the twelve bore witness to the truth. And its been spread over centuries. For the last 2000 years we have been spreading and saying the same things over and over and over. To deny this truth to us is to cease being a Christian. There should be about 2 billion or so out there living not deceased Christians evangelizing like me....I am pretty sure most Buddhist, Muslims, etc believe the same way about homosexuality as the Christians..So where have you been most or your adult life when you began to reason about Christianity. This is what Christians do...they follow the way of Christ per scripture and 2000 years of religious thought by great scholars, theologians, etc. Yeah ...I am Christ speaking for the whole planet and beyond the universe because that is what Christians do. There cannot be many truths in regard to God. Christians do not believe they are better or more special in the eyes of God. That is not the Christian way. The Christian way is humility, love, compassion, forgiveness.
If you want to separate spirituality apart from religion, you are free do so in what you are guided by spiritually for you. Christians are guided by Christ and are compelled by the Holy spirit to spread his message everywhere on this planet. An organized Christian religion has shaped our civilization to what it is now. Without Christianity no telling what kind of western civilization we would be in up to this point. Hospitals, colleges and great institutions, movements of learning were started by Christian organizations. So I don't see a problem with putting some structure in spiritual thought and forming a religion. Unorganized spiritual thought doesn't impact anyone but yourself. What would be the purpose? To me..no man is an island but a part of everyone else. The greater impact of spiritual warfare is done in great numbers and an outcome is achieved.
You come across as feeling correct in your way of thinking as opposed to me...so what makes you right and me wrong? Why do you feel you hold the key to understanding homosexual matters. Ifs it because your one, that does not mean you know more that I.
We as Christians believe that all nations in spiritual organized thought will be one because this is a part of our biblical revelations. If you want to believe this is a far-fetched view, you are free to do so.
You can tell Christians to keep their God to themselves, they will not do so. Besides those who think its ok to practice homosexuality, are not the majority and references made to those who are not in favor of this lifestyle are not from the dark ages. They are your neighbors.
quote:Without Christianity no telling what kind of western civilization we would be in up to this point. Hospitals, colleges and great institutions, movements of learning were started by Christian organizations.
quote:Who do I think I am????...well I am a Christian ( a follower of Jesus Christ). ALL CHRISTIANS SPEAK FOR CHRIST.....This is what Christ told his followers to do. " Anyone who hears you..hears me".
Funny, I don't remember Christ telling his followers to rejoice in the persecution of others.
quote:jade said: Yes!!!!
Great news.
Do you think that Christ would have said the following words?
quote:"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."
This was the argument by Christians in the south opposing interracial marriage. Something that was illegal in many southern states until the Supreme Court declared the laws unconstitutional in 1967.
The only reason that politicians are pushing for bans on gay marriage is for political gain. At least one politician that I know of has stated that banning gay marriage is the most important issue in the nation right now. Where are they living? Under a rock? How about a war in Iraq and Afghanistan? How about homelessness, AIDS, the sad state of our education system, the economy, crime, loss of freedoms and civil rights, unemployment, health care, drugs.
If they were only doing it because it was the "Christian thing to do" I would hope they would be focusing on things more in line with the teachings of Christ. You know, like feeding the hungry, etc, etc. All of the millions of dollars spent on fighting to ban gay marriage could be put to so many better uses, don't you think?
What about the people out in the streets protesting gay marriage. What if they were to focus on something more productive instead. For example tutoring children at underperforming schools, helping out habitat for humanity build houses, working in a soup kitchen, starting youth programs, you get the idea.
quote: jade said:
Who do I think I am????...well I am a Christian ( a follower of Jesus Christ). ALL CHRISTIANS SPEAK FOR CHRIST.....This is what Christ told his followers to do. " Anyone who hears you..hears me". However, you want to see me is your prerogative. If you want to call me ignorant, out of touch it really doesn't matter to me. To spread the TRUTH as they, the twelve bore witness to the truth. And its been spread over centuries. For the last 2000 years we have been spreading and saying the same things over and over and over. To deny this truth to us is to cease being a Christian. There should be about 2 billion or so out there living not deceased Christians evangelizing like me....
Well, you see, this is something I find hard to believe: how can you be certain, for a start, that Jesus Christ's very words are still the same as when he first spoke them? How can I be certain, that what millions and millions of people over 2000 years have not been twisting his words? Even in our scale of human beings at this very moment, it is well known that a piece of information hardly remains intact when passed on and on. How can you, Christians, be absolutely sure that the meaning of Christ's word has not been altered through translations, word of mouth and so on?
For me, the whole argumentation falls apart as soon as it implies other beings, not God Himself. I do believe in the fact that God might be speaking to people, and find this concept absolutely wonderful, although it never happened to me. But how can I trust a text that has been translated over and over before getting to me for a start?
quote: jade said:
I am pretty sure most Buddhist, Muslims, etc believe the same way about homosexuality as the Christians..
Are you absolutely certain about this?
quote: jade said:
So where have you been most or your adult life when you began to reason about Christianity.
Is this a question? You will have to explain this one to me.
quote: jade said:
This is what Christians do...they follow the way of Christ per scripture and 2000 years of religious thought by great scholars, theologians, etc.
Beside what poi and Nathus said about this which I totally agree with, remember that the Church is probably one of the most corrupted institution too. I will try and find examples to illustrate this later on.
quote: jade said:
Unorganized spiritual thought doesn't impact anyone but yourself.
This is probably why I chose not to agree with and join a Church that allowed arrogance, murders, hatred and persecution for the last 2000 years.
quote: jade said:
What would be the purpose? To me..no man is an island but a part of everyone else. The greater impact of spiritual warfare is done in great numbers and an outcome is achieved.
I do agree with your first statement, but not, again, with the Church's ways of achieving outcome.
quote: jade said:
You come across as feeling correct in your way of thinking as opposed to me...so what makes you right and me wrong? Why do you feel you hold the key to understanding homosexual matters. Ifs it because your one, that does not mean you know more that I.
I think what you feel like my coming across as feeling correct is actually my way of making a point of trying to understand anyone's feelings and beliefs, regardless of their religious appartenance, "race" (how I hate that word), and cultural origin. I do think, however, that I am freer than you in making my own opinions about a critical range of topics. And definitely more open minded, as are most other people in the Asylum, Christians or not.
FYI I am heterosexual, but do understand from the deepest of my soul and heart how people can fall in love with another soul, female or male. Love is that fantastic that you can actually love anyone, in any way. Why, tell me why would you like to put a barrier to love?
quote: jade said:
We as Christians believe that all nations in spiritual organized thought will be one because this is a part of our biblical revelations. If you want to believe this is a far-fetched view, you are free to do so.
In theory I think there is nothing wrong with this concept, in an ideal world. However, it has never been and will never be a suitable solution for a world like ours, as your religion has no way to provide satisfaction for each and every ethnic on Earth.
quote: jade said:
Besides those who think its ok to practice homosexuality, are not the majority and references made to those who are not in favor of this lifestyle are not from the dark ages. They are your neighbors.
Again, and again Jade, as it has been pointed out to you so many times: the belief of a majority is not necessarily THE TRUTH.
*********
To extand a bit this debate, I would like to ask everyone's views about this: how is physical attraction linked to love?
quote:Funny, I don't remember Christ telling his followers to rejoice in the persecution of others.
How am I persecuting homosexuals? Am I torturing them?...throwing stones at them. Talking bad about how they treat one another as humans? How am I damaging their reputations? As humans apart from their sexual preferences they are equal to me. I relate to this part of them always.
The Christian way is humility, love, compassion, forgiveness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:Yes Jade, WE are aware of this. Unfortunately, you are not.
I guess that makes you a Christian only in word, not deed.
Come on ..Web..your guilty of judging my character as I am not a Christian? Just because I speak against homosexuality does not
make me a bad person in cahoots with intolerance. I could say your intolerant of Christians or me so how does that make you different
in how you accuse me.
quote:FFS Jade get your facts straight!
First hospitals were founded ~290 BC, and the first school/university ~2250 BC if you consider the Shangyang school, or ~385 BC for Plato's academy.
This is from Wikipedia regarding the history of western civilization:
After the fall of Rome much of Greco-Roman art, literature, science and even technology were lost. Europe fell into political anarchy, with many warring kingdoms and principalities, and evolved into feudalism. The Greek and Roman paganism was essentially completely replaced by Christianity. Roman Catholic Christianity served as a unifying force in Western Europe, and in some respects replaced or competed with the secular authorities. Art and literature, law, education, and politics all fell into its sway. The Church founded many cathedrals, monasteries and seminaries, some of which evolved into today's universities and colleges. In the Medieval period, the route to power for many men was in the Church.
It actively encouraged the spreading of Christianity, which also helped to spread early Western culture. Owing to the influence of Arab culture?a culture that had preserved the knowledge of ancient Greece and Rome?in Moorish Spain and in the Levant during the Crusades, Western Europe rediscovered its Greek heritage in the 1300s, and the Renaissance was born. From the early 15th century to the early 17th century Western culture began to be spread throughout the world by intrepid explorers and missionaries in the Age of Discovery.
PS: This includes astronomy which continues today in that the RC church has the largest most advanced telescope in the world and continues to name galaxies, finds, etc.
And the concept of achieving degrees in education came from the Roman Catholic Christian Church as well. The concept of hospitals was first founded by the Roman catholic church the missionaries, nuns, etc
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-17-2006 17:57
quote:jade said:
How am I persecuting homosexuals? Am I torturing them?...throwing stones at them. Talking bad about how they treat one another as humans? How am I damaging their reputations? As humans apart from their sexual preferences they are equal to me. I relate to this part of them always.
Are you really this dense, or is it an act based on internet anonyminity?
You say that as humans, homosexuals are equal to you, yet you want to forbid them the right to marry and form legal unions with each other. You are fobidding them a basic societal right available to everyone else in the country, purely based on the gender of their significant other. That is persecution, pure and simple. Earlier in the thread you linked "studies" on how homosexuals are alcohol depressives with death wishes or something equally retarded. That would fall under propagating false information about them that is damaging and hurtful.
quote:jade said:
Come on ..Web..your guilty of judging my character as I am not a Christian? Just because I speak against homosexuality does not make me a bad person in cahoots with intolerance. I could say your intolerant of Christians or me so how does that make you different in how you accuse me.
He is judging your character based on what you have posted here in this thread and in others on this forum. We only have the words you use to express yourself, and frankly, he's not the only one that's come to that conclusion. My guess is that WS is intolerant of the idiocy that you continually express without apparently thinking, really thinking, about what you are saying. Jesus went among the sick, the diseased, the unclean, the scum of the earth to spread his gospel. He didn't just spread the Word to those who were societally acceptable to the culture of his time, and it shocked his apostles several times that the Son of God would associate with pariahs. J
esus was about forgiveness and acceptance, and he practiced his own teachings. He accepted others, and taught them when they asked for guidance, but he did not force his views on anyone that was unwilling to accept them. He even forgave those who crucified him "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." Your words here don't follow those teachings. Your words here show how intolerant you are of anyone that doesn't fit into your perfect worldview of Christianity.
Why is your love for your spouse pure and holy and acceptable because he is male and the love of two people wrong and unholy and unacceptable because they are the same gender? Love is recognizing your soulmate. Another soul that completes yours, and forms something greater than the two of you. It's a joining. Who are you to say that the souls of two men or two women aren't meant to become one? Who are you to say that God didn't allow these souls to meet and recognize each other, no matter what physical form they occupy? The soul is part of God's divinity expressed in our human form, and you have no right to say whether or not those two souls belong together or not, just because you don't like the flesh they are encased in.
As for your Wikipedia example, I'll have to let someone else rebut that. You seem to assume that because the Church was a vehicle for the expansion of Western Civilization, that means it was a good thing. In the Middle Ages, the church was probably more a political machine than it was a religious one. Many men went into the priesthood because it was a path to secular power wrapped up in a religous coating. There was so much happening on many levels at that time. It wasn't just the church expanding and generously helping to promote activities you mentioned. You can't look at them in a vaccuum without looking at what was happening to society as a whole at that time (or at the time the bible was "originally" written for that matter).
How am I persecuting homosexuals? Am I torturing them?...throwing stones at them. Talking bad about how they treat one another as humans? How am I damaging their reputations?
Oh now *this* is rich.
You don't consider it persecution when people are banned from living their lives soley because of who they are, or when you fight against their legal rights, and tout as great the belittling of them as a people and their subjugation as somehow less worthy as you.
Your arrogance and slef-righteousness are boundless, and if only for the sake of being able to see your eternal fate, I *WISH* your religion was true...
quote:PS: This includes astronomy which continues today in that the RC church has the largest most advanced telescope in the world and continues to name galaxies, finds, etc.
And the concept of achieving degrees in education came from the Roman Catholic Christian Church as well. The concept of hospitals was first founded by the Roman catholic church the missionaries, nuns, etc
Right.
Are you so much in denial that you can't even read ?
The first hospitals were founded around 290 BC. Also the last time I checked the VLT did not belong to the RC church.
quote:Your arrogance and slef-righteousness are boundless, and if only for the sake of being able to see your eternal fate, I *WISH* your religion was true...
Because you would burn baby
Typical athiest response...
maybe I will burn in hell and maybe I won't. I don't know my fate. You being athiest, I would not even think to judge you as a person in how you treat other humans.
One thing for sure is I and many other Christian brethern would never even presume to say or even think homosexuals are going to hell. This is anti-Christ mentallity.
I think the really narrow minded are yourselves in your narrow perspective about Christians and how you want to perceive the way they persecute homosexuals. The way you come accross is very uneducated in the Christian way. In-tolerance is very evident among you. Per scripture, "it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven". Same is true for the an intolerant bigoted person, so why would I want to be this way regarding humanity. But tolerance of the homosexual lifestyle as it being good and healthy is very un-Christian adn anti-christian. Those who say they are Christian but embrace homosexualtiy are in misguided in Christian thought. Or they are not living a true Chrisitan way. What would Christ say, "love the person who chooses to live against my will, but hate what they do"...because I want to live in them and they live in me becasue my ways are not your ways, but my fathers in heaven"
Do we respect a persons will? yes..but do we have to agree with the will?...no.
Are they, the homosexuals living the way they want? Yes!
So. How am I stopping them? By force? No. I do it by prayer. Peaceful prayer. Quit thowing stones. If you want to continue to live in a secular world..so be it for yourselves..Your ideologies don't dictate that you spread and fight for the homosexual agenda.. But my ideolgoy says speak of the good news in Jesus Christ. Maybe some of you all have or had homosexual tendencies as well or maybe some of you are bi-sexual since I have read so much passion from your post regarding them. Or maybe some have had a homosexual encounter. Who knows. Seems that those who cry the loudest have some issues deep down if you do not profess to act as homosexual.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 10-18-2006 16:42
quote:He is judging your character based on what you have posted here in this thread and in others on this forum. We only have the words you use to express yourself, and frankly, he's not the only one that's come to that conclusion. My guess is that WS is intolerant of the idiocy that you continually express without apparently thinking, really thinking, about what you are saying. Jesus went among the sick, the diseased, the unclean, the scum of the earth to spread his gospel. He didn't just spread the Word to those who were societally acceptable to the culture of his time, and it shocked his apostles several times that the Son of God would associate with pariahs. J
esus was about forgiveness and acceptance, and he practiced his own teachings. He accepted others, and taught them when they asked for guidance, but he did not force his views on anyone that was unwilling to accept them. He even forgave those who crucified him "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." Your words here don't follow those teachings. Your words here show how intolerant you are of anyone that doesn't fit into your perfect worldview of Christianity.
Exactly!
So in answer...
quote:Do we respect a persons will?, yes..but do we have to agree with the will?...no.
Are they, the homosexuals living the way they want? Yes!
So. How am I stopping them? By force? No. I do it by prayer. Peaceful prayer. Quit thowing stones.. If you want to continue to live in a secular world..so be it for yourselves..Your ideologies don't dictate that you spread and fight for the homosexual agenda.. But my ideolgoy says speak of the good news in Jesus Christ. Maybe some of you all have or had homosexual tendencies as well or maybe some of you are bi-sexual since I have read so much passion from your post regarding them Or maybe some have had a homosexual encounter. Who knows. Seems that those who cry the loudest have some issues deep down if you do not profess to be act as homosexual.
You make yourself guilty in that you are supporting those that would prevent people from joining together in marriage, Jade. You have said so yourself. It is not for YOU to judge these things - nor your religion. According to your religion, it is up to your God to do so.
So let your God do the judging, and concentrate yourself upon devoting your life to it, and LEAVE OTHERS ALONE!
So why are you and people like you standing in the way of others joining together in marriage? Marriage doesn't even have anything to do with your religion (although you seem to like it to be so)! It existed before, now during, and will after your religion has vanished from existance. One does not even require a Priest to get married, for crying out loud! It is a LEGAL BINDING and that is all.
You also seem to forget that I was once a Christian (for a period of over 10 years, to be exact - and practicing). It is directly due to people like you that I quit (not to mention the Church itself) - those like you hide behind the veil of religion to persecute and judge others. Your Church has used just such practices against my People, had them slaughtered, and judged them as not even being human! Your Church is a laughingstock! No God-inspired organisation could make such a fundamental error.
After I became educated, and really started dwelving into the history of my People, it became apparent just how ugly the Church is and has been to my People. And quite frankly, I have been much happier with myself and life since leaving the Christian Religion behind me.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Ahh, pot...kettle...black? Most of the people here simply have an intolerance for intolerance. Nobody would be attacking your religion if you weren't using that religion as a means and excuse for trying to control the way other people live.
quote:Same is true for the an intolerant bigoted person, so why would I want to be this way regarding humanity.
Seems to me you already are this way. You believe homosexuality is wrong and you want government to regulate their behavior.
quote:But tolerance of the homosexual lifestyle as it being good and healthy is very un-Christian adn anti-christian.
Bullshit. I'll tell you what anti-Christian is. It is using force, through government proxy or otherwise, to make others behave and live their lives the way you deem appropriate.
quote:So. How am I stopping them? By force? No. I do it by prayer. Peaceful prayer.
So you don't advocate govenment regulations on a union of two people of the same sex? That IS force, whether you do it directly or in your voting practices matters not, the end result is the same.
quote:But my ideolgoy says speak of the good news in Jesus Christ.
Then do so, and stop judging and trying to control other people's lives.
Bet you are still a Bush supporter too, waving your little slave-made plastic flag you bought at super Wal-Mart and blindly chanting "God bless America" while we ravage the world in the War of Terorism and lose all our basic and fundamental rights here at home.
Jade - what you are failing to understand is that by your stance, you are denying a freedom to a group of people. We understand that your faith denounces the acts of homosexuality. The US is not, however, a Christian nation. We have a lot of Christians living in the US, that is a is true. But there is no state-sanctioned religion. As such, we cannot enact laws based on the dictates of a religion. It would be akin to the federal government making a law against consuming pork.
Are there some laws which have counterparts in religous dogma? Yes. Does that make the law religious? No. Religion and government can run concurrently. They do not have to intertwine. The state does not require that churches recognize state marriages. No one is saying that the Catholic Church has to recognize a gay marriage as a marriage. You have the freedom to practice your beliefs, allow others the courtesy to practice theirs, whether you agree with it or not.
Our society may not be quite ready for state-approved gay unions. That doesn't mean that day won't come. The issue has less to do with "traditional family structure" than you think, jade. Yes, there are homosexual couples that would like to raise children. But the issue is so much more than that. It is about two people having the same legal status and rights as a traditionally married couple. Mundane things like filing taxes jointly, being a beneficiary of insurance policies, receiving social security benefits, health-club memberships... Think of all the non-religious things you are involved in where you've had to answer if you're married or not - and the benefits derived from that marriage. That is what the issue of gay marriage is about. The rights and responsibilities of two people vowing commitment to one another.
Those who cry loudest, jade, have no deeper issues than simply desiring equal rights under the law.
Bet you are still a Bush supporter too, waving your little slave-made plastic flag you bought at super Wal-Mart and blindly chanting "God bless America" while we ravage the world in the War of Terorism and lose all our basic and fundamental rights here at home
Very well said! I am afraid so:
quote: Jade said:
The United States of America founded on Christian principles is still a Christian nation and the choosing of George W. Bush reflects it.
Now this is going so far that it is giving me nightmares.
Unfortunately, not much can be done for people who cannot think for themselves.
posted 10-12-2006 12:17
